I know we have discussed this topic to apparent saturation point, but using that same word, I have an NOS Ideale 90 saddle, w/black enameled rails, bought new from Mel Pinto Imports perhaps 10 years ago and presumed in their warehouse another 10 years... In any case, it was packed in oil/grease or something that seems to have penetrated the leather, to the point it is of some concern. It is not stamped with the ReBour treatment mark. But it is similar to that...It certainly does not have a smooth glossy finish (But I guess Ideales never did have that finish like Brooks.) Has anyone had a similarly treated Ideale saddle and, most importantly, did it settle in and stay useable? DaleDale BrownGreensboro, North Carolina-----Original Message-----From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org; Tony Colegrave <tony_colegrave@hotmail.com>Sent: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 10:23 amSubject: Re: [CR] Soaking saddles - The 'Expert' RespondsThanks, Tony, always best to get the advice direct rather than second hand. It seems I was being too charitable to Brooks Italian mangement in terms of the quality of the hides they are using.I will say that having worked on probably 10 saddles now in the last month, ranging from possibly as old as the 40's to a very recent Brooks steel Swallow, the leather is noticeable thinner on the more recent saddles. This applies to Ideale as well as Brooks. The leather on more recent, perhaps early 80's, Ideale 90's is noticeably thinner than on old models 52 or 59 or even a model 87 from perhaps the early 70's. I know there is no doubt much more to the quality of the leather than its thickness, but the difference in thickness is something even a non-expert can notice.I did mention saddle soap, but not the use of warm water, or applying a final appliaction of saddle soap and allowing to try. It is good to have the more detailed information.What is your advice in terms of an NOS saddle or a little used one that has been sitting in the bin or on a bike several years? Is it worth while to soak such a saddle to try to restore moisture it may have lost in storage? Is there potential for premature shape loss with an NOS saddle that has become too dry in storage, which a preventive soaking may avoid? I'm thinking saddles drying out before use may be a particular problem in essentially desert climates like here in West Texas, probably less so in a damp climete like England.Regards,Jerry MoosBig Sprig, Texas, USA --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Tony Colegrave <tony_colegrave@hotmail.com> wrote:> From: Tony Colegrave <tony_colegrave@hotmail.com>> Subject: RE: [CR] Soaking saddles - The 'Expert' Responds> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Cc: jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 5:54 AM> > > > #yiv1939884876 .hmmessage P> {> margin:0px;padding:0px;}> #yiv1939884876 {> font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}> > > > > > > > > #yiv1939884876 .hmmessage P> {margin:0px;padding:0px;}> #yiv1939884876 {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}> > > > > > > > #yiv1939884876 .hmmessage P> {margin:0px;padding:0px;}> #yiv1939884876 {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}> > > > > > > > #yiv1939884876 .hmmessage P> {margin:0px;padding:0px;}> #yiv1939884876 {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}> > > > > > > > #yiv1939884876 .hmmessage P> {margin:0px;padding:0px;}> #yiv1939884876 {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}> > > > > > > > #yiv1939884876 .hmmessage P> {margin:0px;padding:0px;}> #yiv1939884876 {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}> > > > > > > > #yiv1939884876 .hmmessage P> {margin:0px;padding:0px;}> #yiv1939884876 {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}> > > > > > > > #yiv1939884876 .hmmessage P> {margin:0px;padding:0px;}> #yiv1939884876 {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}> > > > > > > > #yiv1939884876 .hmmessage P> {margin:0px;padding:0px;}> #yiv1939884876 {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}> > > > > > > > #yiv1939884876 .hmmessage P> {margin:0px;padding:0px;}> #yiv1939884876 {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}> > > As I seem to have been drawn into this thread> (by proxy, if you will), I feel that it's appropriate> that I should try to correct one or two misapprehensions> regarding my views on the matter under discussion, albeit> somewhat late in the day. E-mail correspondence is, IMO, an> unsatisfactory medium in which to express oneself in a lucid> and precise manner, and one which tends to exacerbate the> old trans-Atlantic 'two nations, divided ....'> syndrome, but, as it seems that this stuff is archived> (?verb) for posterity, I'll try to make myself> plain(er).> I don't think that soaking a saddle for> longer than 24 hours will really enhance the process -> overnight should be more than adequate. Longer soaking may> initially improve the appearance of a 'badly> cracked' saddle, but no amount of soaking will do> anything to 'heal' these defects - if defects they> are; most of us, especially if we're of a 'certain> age' (only slightly older than most of the saddles that> we're considering, in the main?), will have acquired a> few cracks and creases of our own, but, although we're> told that our living tissue can be 'repaired' to> some extent that is not possible with dead animal skin, most> (I hope) will prefer to see these 'defects' as> conferring a degree of distinction. But, I digress...> The best 'treatment' for a badly> cracked leather saddle, provided that it is stll> structurally sound, is to ride it regularly, with love and> the occasional light dressing of 'Proofide'. Most of> these things have languished, unloved and neglected, for> many years, and it can be surprising (sometimes, but not> always) just how well they'll respond to a bit of TLC.> I think Jerry has mis-understood my comments> about the leather 'tearing at the rivet holes'> (which is where it usually occurs, of course). 'Abuse> and overtightening' implies to me an active assault on> the saddle, but I think that most of these things have been> damaged simply by neglect; a leather saddle which has been> kept in an unsuitable environment, often unused for many> years, may well have 'lost it's nature', and the> fibers (?American sp.) become brittle - once this has> happened, nothing can feasibly be done to 'revive'> it.> Little mention has been made of my concomitant> advice that, after soaking and assessing that it's> probable that the saddle still has a life worth saving,> it's nearly always important to cleanse the leather with> saddle soap; I do this in mildly warm water and, having> rinsed the resulting crud away, I rub more soap into the> leather and leave it to dry - saddle soap these days seems> to contain considerably more glycerine than domestic soaps,> and this will probably provide all the 'essential> oil' that the saddle needs. As regards drying, I> certainly don't advise the use of excessive heat, but> I'd think that 'in a dark room' is probably> taking it too far the other way; ideally, you'll need a> good flow of air in a warm-ish environment - say, by an open> window, on a Summer's day and out of direct sunlight,> and it should be ready to dress (lightly, and topside only,> I'd suggest) with 'Proofide' within 24 hours.> However, 'in a dark room' may well be a very> suitable environment for maintaining any such saddle when> it's not in use; what I'd suggest is ideal, is a> slightly damp cellar, with good air-flow and constant mild> temperature - certainly no central heating. Might not suit> the rest of the bike, though.> One thing that Jerry has most certainly> mis-understood, is my opinion regarding the quality of the> leather that Brooks are using for their current production.> It's quite true that concerns have been expressed> regarding the raw material available to tanners these days,> and it may well be that even the best finished product> 'lacks substance' compared with that available in> the past (as has been suggested to me recently, regarding> the stuff that I'm using), but I'm quite convinced> that the leather used by Brooks (especially that awful> material that those poor devils in B'ham are having to> use to make the so-called 'aged' models) is nothing> like the best that is currently available. I have had> conversations with the Italian management of the Company,> but I don't think it appropriate that I should discuss> these in this forum - even if I had the time, which I really> don't have at present.> Tony Colegrave, Northiam, E.Sussex, U.K.> > > Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 10:34:08 -0700> > From: jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> > To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org; johnb@oxford.net> > Subject: Re: [CR] Soaking saddles - The Expert> Responds> > > > > > Tony had little time and only really responded to the> issues of detensioning the saddle, probable cause of tearing> at the rivets, and his opinion that presoaking won't> help new saddles from inferior hides.> > > > I change the water after a day or overnight. Soaking> will bring a lot of excess oils, including Proffide, to the> surface, especially on the underside. I clean it off with> saddle soap, sometimes using a scrub sponge - scrub sponge> only on underside. I did this on an old Ideale model 44> just this morning. I've probably now soaked or am in> process on 8 or 9 saddle. Almost every one has been a> success. The two newish Brooks regained shape after the> slight early sag, although Tony's comments might suggest> this won't last. One old Brooks Pro that had good shape> but was badly cracked improved a lot but was still pretty> cracked after it dried. It's back in the bucket for> another couple of days. Will dry more slowly indoors this> time as Tony seems to suggests. I've yet to see a case> where there wasn't at least some improvement and in no> case has it done any harm.> > > > This should go without saying, but one way you CAN do> harm is by tensioning the saddle while still wet.> > > > Regards,> > > > Jerry Moos> > Big Spring, Texas, USA> > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/30/09, John Betmanis> <johnb@oxford.net> wrote:> > > > > From: John Betmanis <johnb@oxford.net>> > > Subject: Re: [CR] Soaking saddles - The Expert> Responds> > > To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> > > Date: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 11:55 AM> > > At 08:28 AM 30/05/2009 -0700, Jerome> > > & Elizabeth Moos wrote:> > > >> > > >I've received an offlist response from> Tony> > > Colegrave. > > > >> > > >In regard to tensioning, he advises that it> can be a> > > sensible precaution> > > to detension or even remove the nose bolt before> beginning> > > if circumstances> > > permit.> > > >> > > > > > Was there any response from anyone on or off-list> whether> > > the water should> > > be changed when it turns black after several> hours? My own> > > personal sense> > > would be not to change it because you'd end> up leeching> > > more of the> > > "goodness" out of the saddle. I also> wonder if it would> > > help to try and> > > scrape off any excess Proofide or try washing it> off with> > > alcohol before> > > soaking, or would soaking eventually just lift it> off> > > anyway?> > > > > > As for soaking hiking boots, as someone> mentioned, I've> > > also heard that's> > > how you're supposed to break in new cowboy> boots. Fill them> > > with water and> > > wear them night and day until they're dry.> Not sure I'd> > > want to do that> > > with a pair that cost more than a titanium Brooks>=20saddle.> > > > > > John Betmanis> > > Woodstock, Ontario> > > Canada> > > _______________________________________________> > > Classicrendezvous mailing list> > > Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> > >> http://www.bikelist.org/