Re: [CR] Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 86, Issue 76

(Example: Production Builders:Cinelli:Laser)

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:25:15 +0000
From: <saynomore51@comcast.net>
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23380.1266378787.565.classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: Re: [CR] Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 86, Issue 76


Re: Vintage Shimano Crankset/pedal question- You should look for Durace EX and Durace AX- ex being the earlier version. The large bearing pedals were/are known as Dynadrive. Both sets are early '80's vintage and in spite of many negative comments elsewhere they are very good items. I rode a Durace EX groupo for many years with no problems and the EX derailleurs and brakes work very well. The Dynadrive pedals are a bit of an acquired taste, but I always liked them. I still have my complete group and intend to put it on my Miyata Team, as soon as I can find the correct fork and can repair a broken derailleur hanger--big if's!!

Daniel Lay
Norcross, GA.


----- Original Message -----
From: classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:53:07 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 86, Issue 76


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CR

Today's Topics:

1. Re: Fuji eBay outing - mine (Andrew R Stewart) 2. OldBrit bits for sale SOLD (crumpy6204@aol.com) 3. Campy thick and thin cups, BB widths, and Phil BBs. (Harvey Sachs) 4. Stopping power, was Weinmann Brakes: 500 vs. 605 (Harvey Sachs) 5. Dura Ace Crank/Pedal Question (stephen gray) 6. Brooks Saddle swap (WILLIAM OSHAUGHNESSY) 7. Holdsworth; old hat, but beautiful (John D Proch) 8. Re: Stonglight 118 bottom bracket axle dimensions. (hfbirm) 9. Re: Dura Ace Crank/Pedal Question (R.S. Broderick) 10. Re: Weinmann 500s (P.C. Kohler) 11. Re: Fuji eBay outing - tubing (Bob Hillery) 12. Re: Fuji eBay outing - tubing (Andrew R Stewart) 13. Who Is the Machinist or QA Person ? (r cielec)

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Message: 1 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:28:29 -0500 From: Andrew R Stewart <onetenth@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [CR] Fuji eBay outing - mine To: Bob Hillery <rhillery@hawksi.org>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <809C9A140185451EBCA2783E2AAEA3AB@ARSPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original

Bob- A question. How do you know that the tubing is Vitus Team 750? My current 1975 one, the 1973 and the 1974 I had all had a decal like this

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73195587@N00/4363997796/in/set-72157622489545743/

I always was led to believe that the tubing was privet labeled from one of the Japanese tube drawing companies. Either Ishiwata or Tange being the two most likely companies.

Any way about the brand, the wall thickness of the main frame is probably 1x.7x1mm. given the feel.

I think it's cool that these fine Asian made bikes are being recognized.


----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Hillery
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:07 PM
Subject: [CR] Fuji eBay outing - mine



> http://ebay.com/<blah>
> 1927 Finest
>
> It's too large (58cm) for me and besides, this Japanese model is out of
> place with my Brit, French, & Italian bunch.
>
> ... and the head of the house said somethin' had to go ...
>
> Bob (not quite snowbound) Hillery
> Stratham, NH, US
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________

Andrew R Stewart Rochester, NY

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Message: 2 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:33:40 -0500 From: <crumpy6204@aol.com> Subject: [CR] OldBrit bits for sale SOLD To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <8CC7D7FFCA5F648-545C-3BB1@webmail-d091.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

BUT I still have the Suntour 6sp block 13-28 $25.00 I pay the shipping Heck of a Deal! Cheers John Crump OldhavingfunBrit, Parker. Co USA

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Message: 3 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:36:06 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs <hmsachs@verizon.net> Subject: [CR] Campy thick and thin cups, BB widths, and Phil BBs. To: <jonswriter@att.net>, Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, OROBOYZ <OROBOYZ@AOL.COM> Message-ID: <4B7B39F6.4050507@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Jon Spangler wrote: WHY did Campagnolo make thin and thick BB cups? I have been reading about thick and thin cups for months and never understood why anyone would offer two thicknesses (two thinnesses?) in BB cups, if not to deal with the vagaries of different BB shell widths, axle lengths, crank arm designs and ages/wear factors, Q factors, etc.

Harvey: The thick cups have helical grooves in the inner surfaces, left on one side and right on the other. The theory was that the rotation of the spindle would carry grease out through the grooves, extending the maintenance interval. To compensate, the cones are closer together than "normal" ones. This probably helps it flex better. Incidently, both Shimano and Suntour offered "thick" cups, too, but without the spiral grooves. So

Jon Spangler: As a Phil Wood BB user and partisan for 35 years now, I can attest to their durability and superb price/value ratio, for all of you who think they are too pricey. I am still using my two original 1970s Phil BBs and they are going strong with NO signs of wearing out. (I may have replaced the bearings once...). You can buy used Phil BBs on ebay fearlessly (just check for the correct tapers) since Phil Wood can replace bearings on anything they have made, including the CR-acceptable "vintage" BBs of long ago. And it is SO simple to dial in the BB fits, crank offsets, Q factors, chain lines, and such.....

Harvey: I'm also a huge Phil fan, but there are actually two models of Phil BBs that I would shun. One is easy to spot: it doesn't have replaceable bearings, but an integral cartridge set-up, only made for a few years. The other is harder to spot, can't do it w/o disassembly. This one used a snap-lock washer inboard of each bearing, and the washer seated in a sharp-edged groove in the axle. Stress risers, and they are reputed to have broken frequently. This design gave way to ones that use an aluminum sleeve to maintain the bearing separation.

Dale Brown: Remember in almost every case;
> 70 mm wide = Italian.
> 68 mm wide = British, French, Japanese, Spanish, Swiss.

Harvey: Let's not forget the 65 mm BBs on older British frames with narrow rears. And my on-topic Schwinn Town & Country tandems had a 74 mm. rear bracket, if memory serves.

Harvey "details, details" Sachs mcLean va

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Message: 4 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:48:05 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs <hmsachs@verizon.net> Subject: [CR] Stopping power, was Weinmann Brakes: 500 vs. 605 To: <corpuzfamily@hotmail.com>, Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, r cielec <teaat4p@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B7B3CC5.3030507@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

It's pretty easy to degrade the performance of brake systems. To start with, use the wrong pad. Changing to a good pad probably makes more difference than anything else - and conveniently is the cheapest improvement (other than cleaning the rims).

Next, in general, centerpulls have more leverage than sidepulls, and short arms have more leverage than long ones. Just the physics, ma'am. So, to degrade performance, use super-long arm side-pulls, like those found on certain beknighted BMX bikes. Whose operators are not known for big strong hands. Oh well, Darwin wins.

Third, levers vary almost 2:1 in their leverage, with Universals having very low leverage - and correspondingly high travel, and Weinmanns much better among the ones I've measured. Want less stopping power and a harder, firmer, feel? Install Universal levers.

Remember, more leverage will feel softer, since you can apply enough force to feel all the flex in the cables, calipers, mounts, etc.

harvey sachs mcLean va ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Baron C" responded to a question:

605!........Is a better brake!....Better stopping power and so on........500>>>>>wIMpY! Me....Remember>>>>Flying down 9 into SANTA CRUZ!...Using Weinmann 500......Was like having NO BRAKES!....What was I THINKING?????????????????

Richard Cielec had asked:
>>
>> I am asking for comments comparing the performance of these two models. I understand this is subjective and many factors obtain yet, none-the-less, I'd welcome the feedback. I am concerned about the performance such as stopping power, feel, "snap" and such.
>>
>> The 605 has a snazzy QR & adjuster to facilitate maintenance but, these are of secondary importance at present.

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Message: 5 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:24:35 -0800 From: stephen gray <scgray@worldnet.att.net> Subject: [CR] Dura Ace Crank/Pedal Question To: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <001601caaf6f$f8158130$0f27480c@yourd0f670b45a> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response

I'm sure this is covered in the archives, but I need a search string hint as I'm striking out. I'm looking for more information on a vintage Dura Ace crankset with matching pedals where the pedal bearing is in the crank arm. The pedal mounting hole is more or less 3/4" diameter and seems to house the bearing assembly. The pedals look "trackish" and very light, but the crank appears pretty robust as does the threaded mount.

Steve Gray Las Vegas, NV USA

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Message: 6 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:28:12 -0500 From: WILLIAM OSHAUGHNESSY <willycruz@mac.com> Subject: [CR] Brooks Saddle swap To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <E182103A-F85C-4D78-AE71-E6984DEAE781@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello CR, Another wonderful snowy evening to contemplate Bike fit.. I have a Brooks B15 Swallow (Honey ) on my Condor Classico since August 09.. its a wonderful saddle..however the length is becoming an issue with a recent fit I had at a reputable Cycle shoppe in Philly. Im looking to trade or sell this one for a Brooks B17 or a Pro Classic. I like the fact the Swallow has the tool bag hooks on the rear.. so not sure if the Pro Classic has ( seems ) not, but the B 17 editions do.. ANy feedback on the B-17 models would be great and offers for the Swallow.. email me me privately : passion4cycling @me.com I'll send pics.. The swallow seems to be selling for around $217 new on Brooks.. so Ill consider any reasonable offers at fair market value for a slightly broken in Saddle..or a swap/trade for the difference of value in swallow/B17 /Proclassic

Cheers on this Chilly nite on eastern LI

William J OShaughnessy Manorville, NY- USA

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Message: 7 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:35:50 -0600 From: John D Proch <johnprochss@hotmail.com> Subject: [CR] Holdsworth; old hat, but beautiful To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, John D <johnprochss@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <COL123-W2033277093DD4E36B3D157AA480@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"

Hello Fellow Vintage Cyclists,

The Holdsworth on Ebay, which I hold no claim to is so very pretty. My stable is full so anybody have a stall? The next mare out of the stall is my wife and I dare not loose her, so I can't even dream because dreaming for me is dangerous. Take care and nice to see your posts here.

http://ebay.com/<blah>

Regards, John Proch La Grange, Texas

_________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/

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Message: 8 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:37:01 -0800 From: hfbirm <hfbirm@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: [CR] Stonglight 118 bottom bracket axle dimensions. To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <108326.9829.qm@web180310.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I measured mine, stamped "11??? 80" (Nov '80 I presume?)?& "Stronglight 118 Marque Deposee" & "P"?that came out of an Italian threaded 70mm (nominal) bottom bracket shell and the results are: (measured with?calipers) end to end: 118.4+mm flange to flange o-o: 56.5mm the DS offset is +2mm (30mm & 32mm) The Italian cups have a "stepped landing" between the bearing race and the spindle hole.? If these are not present on the 68mm cups, then maybe this helps account for the shell width difference, but the steps?are not as large as 1mm per side.? The cup thickness at the?spindle is not easy to measure accurately with my tools, but appears to be about 2mm thick.?? I don't have a French/English cup to compare it to.?

So it appears that either Stronglight used the same spindle for both shell widths, or that mine is a mixed unit. I'm going with the former based on other's experiences on here.???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Jim Carter "the French metric manufacturing standards were right" living way above my means in Mountain Brook, suburb of Birmingham, Alabama United States of America

________________________________ From: "billydavid13@comcast.net" <billydavid13@comcast.net> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 5:53:20 PM Subject: [CR] Stonglight 118 bottom bracket axle dimensions.

Hi all. I just measured the 2 i have [one just arrived today from listmember Tom Ward!] and they are respectively 118.5mm and 118.7mm end to end and approx. 57mm from bearing flange to bearing flange [measured from the top outsides above the slopes].? Just sharing the info. Billy Ketchum; Chicago, IL; USA. _______________________________________________

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Message: 9 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:37:16 -0800 From: "R.S. Broderick" <rsb000@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [CR] Dura Ace Crank/Pedal Question To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <SNT133-w467B3E27245C5133501BDC9C480@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I presume that you are referring to the Shimano Dyna-Drive (DD) mechanism as featured in the early 1980's Dura-Ace EX series:

http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=7050&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=7113&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=7116&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Robert "Let Your Fingers Do The Walking Through The Velo-Pages" Broderick

...the "Chronically Cloudy Clime" of Oregon

Portland, USA


> From: scgray@worldnet.att.net
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:24:35 -0800
> Subject: [CR] Dura Ace Crank/Pedal Question
>
> I'm sure this is covered in the archives, but I need a search string hint as
> I'm striking out. I'm looking for more information on a vintage Dura Ace
> crankset with matching pedals where the pedal bearing is in the crank arm.
> The pedal mounting hole is more or less 3/4" diameter and seems to house the
> bearing assembly. The pedals look "trackish" and very light, but the crank
> appears pretty robust as does the threaded mount.
>
> Steve Gray
> Las Vegas, NV USA
>
> _______________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/

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Message: 10 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:50:59 -0800 From: "P.C. Kohler" <kohl57@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [CR] Weinmann 500s To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <489745.93308.qm@web54402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Who cares about the stopping power of brakes on a racing bike?! Avanti si, fermata, no. I thought the Weinmann 500s were the coolest brakes of their era since they were, by far, when introduced the lightest on the market and remained so I think until the CLB Professionals. And as such were the choice of time trialists for years. Plus they had that distinctive reverse arrangement of the caliper arm with the cable on the "other side" making them instantly identifiable. They were also the shortest reach brakes of their era. I always liked how sensible Weinmann were in "branding" their brakes by the simple expedient of their reach. And if anyone has a NOS or excellent condition Weinmann 500 brakeset in anodised black who wants to sell them for their poor stopping power, gimme a shout, please. But you can overcharge me for their time trial cool quotient.

Peter Kohler Washington DC USA

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Message: 11 Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:07:21 +0000 From: Bob Hillery <rhillery@hawksi.org> Subject: Re: [CR] Fuji eBay outing - tubing To: Andrew R Stewart <onetenth@earthlink.net> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID: <W753306393285281266376041@webmail60> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Andrew - Dang ! I wrote that info down when I first researched the serial number and other details from the web and now I can't find it. So right now all I have is my own 3x5 card for a ref - and that's not enough for me. This bike has a similar down tube decal saying double butted cro-moly ... So I annotated the listing on eBay and have to retract the Vitus comment here, as well. I know I saw it, because I wouldn't have jotted it down otherwise ... That'll teach me (again, maybe) to just hit the print button.

It is interesting that some of the gear is different from the apparent '72 era standard. They came with Ukai wheels, and this has Mavic w/ Normandy hubs. Being a bit of a Francophile, I'd call those upgrades. ;-)

domo arigato, Bob Hillery
> 15 cm/6in of new snow in Stratham, NH, US

-----Original Message----- From: Andrew R Stewart [mailto:onetenth@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 07:28 PM To: 'Bob Hillery', classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR] Fuji eBay outing - mine

Bob- A question. How do you know that the tubing is Vitus Team 750?

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Message: 12 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:26:27 -0500 From: Andrew R Stewart <onetenth@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [CR] Fuji eBay outing - tubing To: Bob Hillery <rhillery@hawksi.org> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID: <50EC00C3F1E54F588D726CD542AB9A77@ARSPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Bob- Two of the three Finests I've had spent a long time in the "shop" before I bought them. Of course many shops try hard to move the old bikes and/or sell off the components of the old bikes still in stock. Both the ones I got were on sale. I am sure the shops were happy to move them with out more hassle. So it isn't surprising that your bike was sold with changes to the spec.

Being a long time wrench I have mixed feelings about French stuff, although I do like their rims!

I've forwarded this to a friend who was looking for a Finest at one time. Good luck.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Hillery"
To: "Andrew R Stewart"
Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [CR] Fuji eBay outing - tubing


Andrew - Dang ! I wrote that info down when I first researched the serial number and other details from the web and now I can't find it. So right now all I have is my own 3x5 card for a ref - and that's not enough for me. This bike has a similar down tube decal saying double butted cro-moly ... So I annotated the listing on eBay and have to retract the Vitus comment here, as well. I know I saw it, because I wouldn't have jotted it down otherwise ... That'll teach me (again, maybe) to just hit the print button.

It is interesting that some of the gear is different from the apparent '72 era standard. They came with Ukai wheels, and this has Mavic w/ Normandy hubs. Being a bit of a Francophile, I'd call those upgrades. ;-)

domo arigato, Bob Hillery
> 15 cm/6in of new snow in Stratham, NH, US

-----Original Message----- From: Andrew R Stewart [mailto:onetenth@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 07:28 PM To: 'Bob Hillery', classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR] Fuji eBay outing - mine

Bob- A question. How do you know that the tubing is Vitus Team 750? Andrew R Stewart Rochester, NY

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Message: 13 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:53:10 -0800 From: r cielec <teaat4p@yahoo.com> Subject: [CR] Who Is the Machinist or QA Person ? To: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <798871.30023.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ahoy !

In one of the recent threads, I think that concerning Spindles, someone mentioned they do a lot of measuring - the person may be a machinisht or QA inspector. Can you contact me off list, please? Thanks. Richard Cielec Chicago, Illinois; U.S.A.

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End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 86, Issue 76 *************************************************