Re: [CR] Pre War Peugeot Racing Bikes and "Italianate" Racers?

(Example: Framebuilders:Bernard Carré)

In-Reply-To: <281749.49353.qm@web54403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <281749.49353.qm@web54403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 17:22:51 -0400
From: "Ken Freeman" <kenfreeman096@gmail.com>
To: "P.C. Kohler" <kohl57@yahoo.com>
Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [CR] Pre War Peugeot Racing Bikes and "Italianate" Racers?


Not to fight about the numbers, but I want to point out that my 52 cm 1968 or 69 PX-10 measures out with 73/73 angles. It's not built so I can't tell you how it rides. Your generalization is not good.

On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 4:22 PM, P.C. Kohler <kohl57@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "NOTE: A Gitane collector submitted specs for the 70s vintage
> TdFs that are definitely pretty stretched out: 72.5 degree
> parallel, 5.5cm of rake and 45cm stays.
>
>
> -Dave Mann, Boston, MA"
>
> "Stretched out"?!
>
> One of the joys of taking this stuff out on the road on a regular basis is
> explaining that, yes, this really is a RACING BIKE of its era and yes you
> really can put a fist between the seat tube and the rear tyre and still
> still won lots of real roadraces on such things. Honest. But why I am
> explaining the geometry of my proper steel racing machine to a guy riding a
> "racing bike" with a girl's sloping top tube that looks four times too small
> for him anyway?
>
> 72 parallel angles on a racing bike was the standard in the 1960s I think,
> certainly the PX-10 had these measurements from late 1950s through to about
> 1973. And I think 73 parallel was pretty much the standard for Italian
> machines of late 60s-mid 70s. There was recently some discussion if "Gran
> Criterium" was applicable to the Masi of the same name and by modern
> standards, certainly not and even maybe not by contemporary ones of the day.
> My '71 GC is a creampuff compared to even my '74 Colnago in ride and my '75
> Gios all the more nimble and "racy".
>
> Contemporary British machines like the Carlton Giro d'Italia/Raleigh
> Professional were, if anything, more severe in geometry than the Continental
> stage racing bikes with higher bottom brackets and reflecting British
> preferences for timetrialling perhaps. Holdsworth Professionals started out
> as 73 parallel in 1971 went to 74 c. 1973-74 and even 75 parallel a year
> later which was found to be too twitchy and they went back to 74 but all
> still way stiffer than most Continental makes of the time. Falcon San Remo's
> were 73 parallel from their inception, I think, which made them very stiff
> compared to their 1960s contemporaries and with less fork rake than many
> British makes but still with those long 17 and some chainstays.
>
> Fork rakes seem to be LONG on French and British machines and shorter on
> Italian ones of the same era. More than angles, I think this really
> distinguishes the handling and one of the reasons Merckx was said to have
> both thoroughly disliked riding PX-10s and didn't master descending until he
> got Italian iron under him. And top tubes, likewise, longer on French and
> British frames. Ideally, I'd prefer to climb Mt. Ventoux on my PX-10 and
> descend it on my Gios or Colnago and time trial on a Raleigh/Carlton Pro.
>
> I don't collect pre-war machines, but suspect the average was probably 70
> on French ones, maybe 71 on Italian. But immediate post-war doesn't look
> much different and Coppi looked like a sparrow stretched on the rack on
> those long top tube Bianchis of the day.
>
> Peter Kohler
> Washington DC USA
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>

--
Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA