Maybe it was just that all of the chrome bikes that came through our shop (maybe 1/2 dozen or so in two years) or the ones I saw were pinstripped. Could be that that's just the way the owner of the shop ordered them.
Garland Glenn Tyler, TX
In a message dated 5/30/2010 12:14:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org writes:
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Today's Topics:
1. GIOS SR Repro (Anthony Taylor) 2. Re: Campy rims OT? WTB (Jim Merz) 3. Re: GIOS SR Repro (oroboyz@aol.com) 4. Campy rims OT? WTB (Jim Merz) 5. Lug lining on Paramounts (Tom Sanders) 6. Re: Campy rims OT? WTB (John Betmanis) 7. Re: Lug lining/striping on 1970s Paramounts (Gdglenn201@aol.com) 8. Re: Lug lining/striping on 1970s Paramounts... (david) 9. Re: Ron Kitching Cyclassic (andy rahe) 10. Re: [Frame] Flange Positions in Rear Hub (paccoastcycles) 11. Campy rims OT? WTB (Steven Maasland) 12. Yet another blast from the past, DB #7 (oroboyz@aol.com) 13. Re: Ron Kitching Cyclassic (donald gillies) 14. Re: Campy rims OT? WTB (John Betmanis) 15. Re: Lug lining/striping on 1970s Paramounts (joeb-z@comcast.net)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 06:53:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Anthony Taylor <ajft1942@yahoo.com> Subject: [CR] GIOS SR Repro To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID: <97374.11271.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I know this technically off topic, but hope it comes in under the wire as KOF. Can anyone tell me about the 25th anniversary reproduction frames made by GIOS? Do they measure up to the originals? I appreciate any comments or info.
Thanks
Tony Taylor Manchester NH
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 07:06:40 -0700 From: Jim Merz <jameshmerz@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [CR] Campy rims OT? WTB To: Steven Maasland <themaaslands@comcast.net> Message-ID: <AANLkTik4ljFmEv5y3mGpDyiJSc6mQ990YnawafKaIoZw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I went to Tullio Campagnolo's memorial, when would that be? 1983 is when he died. At that time I went through the factory and saw them working on the rims. I don't think they wanted this known, but they must have started using them at least for testing soon after this. I don't think they were that interested in clinchers at this early date however.
Jim Merz Big Sur CA USA
On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Steven Maasland
<themaaslands@comcast.net>wrote:
> John responded:
>
> "My 1981 Nishiki Ultimate originally came with Campag clincher rims, but
> when I bought it (new) I had the shop replace them with Nisi tubular
> rims. So they existed and would certainly be OT."
>
> In response to David's question:
>
> "Are any Campagnolo clincher rims OT ?"
>
> Please allow me to state that were absolutely no Campagnolo rims
whatsoever
> in 1981, whether clincher or tubular.
>
> All Campagnolo rims are definitely off-topic, as all were produced after
> 1983. The first Campagnolo price list to feature rims was the one from
1986.
> The first Campagnolo catalogs and brochures featuring rims also date from
> 1986. It would however appear that the first rims were delivered in
either
> late 1984 or in 1985 but that they were not widely available until 1986.
Had
> rims been available in 1981 as reported by John, there is no doubt
> whatsoever that they would have been included in earlier price lists as
well
> as part of the 50th anniversary gruppo. The freewheel, saddle and rims
all
> post-date the 50th anniversary gruppo.
>
> Steven Maasland
> Moorestown, NJ
> USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> http://www.bikelist.org/
>
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 10:15:33 -0400 From: oroboyz@aol.com Subject: Re: [CR] GIOS SR Repro To: ajft1942@yahoo.com, Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID: <8CCCE19B3D3A8AA-2D60-24AD1@Webmail-d104.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
<<... Can anyone tell me about the 25th anniversary reproduction frames made by GIOS? Do they measure up to the originals? >>
This is just one person's highly biased opinion but they were a poor attempt. The moral of this story is that reproductions are NEVER satisfactory, and only achieve the true purpose, to separate the buyer from her/his money...
Dale Brown cycles de ORO, Inc. 1410 Mill Street #100 Greensboro, North Carolina 27408 USA 336-274-5959 http://www.cyclesdeoro.com http://www.classicrendezvous.com http://www.carolinacup.com ?Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving? A.Einstein
-----Original Message----- From: Anthony Taylor <ajft1942@yahoo.com> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Sun, May 30, 2010 9:53 am Subject: [CR] GIOS SR Repro
I know this technically off topic, but hope it comes in under the wire as KOF. Can anyone tell me about the 25th anniversary reproduction frames made by GIOS? Do they measure up to the originals? I appreciate any comments or info.
Thanks
Tony Taylor Manchester NH
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------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 07:16:10 -0700 From: Jim Merz <jameshmerz@gmail.com> Subject: [CR] Campy rims OT? WTB To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID: <AANLkTikW-LhIG_X27PG6FxNW1d3Yiqz5BbR8EVrG126v@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I went to Tullio Campagnolo's memorial, when would that be? 1983 is when he died. At that time I went through the factory and saw them working on the rims. I don't think they wanted this known, but they must have started using them at least for testing soon after this. I don't think they were that interested in clinchers at this early date however.
Jim Merz Big Sur CA USA
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 10:29:01 -0400 From: "Tom Sanders" <tom@orderandchaos.com> Subject: [CR] Lug lining on Paramounts To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <000a01cb0004$73599130$5a0cb390$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dale enquired about when this ended. I believe December of 1971 was the last of it. Maybe some custom orders included it, but I haven't seen any.
Tom Sanders
Lansing, MI USA
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 10:46:28 -0400 From: John Betmanis <johnb@oxford.net> Subject: Re: [CR] Campy rims OT? WTB To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID: <4C027A44.5050709@oxford.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I say it's a 1981 Nishiki Ultimate based on the PAT 81 date on the RD and I probably bought it in 1982. These top models were not in the published catalogues. It most definitely had Campagnolo clincher rims when hanging in the bike shop and barring time travel, they could not have been off-topic.
-- John Betmanis Woodstock, Ontario Canada
On 30/05/2010 12:27 AM, Steven Maasland wrote:
> John responded:
>
> "My 1981 Nishiki Ultimate originally came with Campag clincher rims, but
> when I bought it (new) I had the shop replace them with Nisi tubular
> rims. So they existed and would certainly be OT."
>
> In response to David's question:
>
> "Are any Campagnolo clincher rims OT ?"
>
> Please allow me to state that were absolutely no Campagnolo rims
whatsoever in 1981, whether clincher or tubular.
>
> All Campagnolo rims are definitely off-topic, as all were produced after
1983. The first Campagnolo price list to feature rims was the one from
1986. The first Campagnolo catalogs and brochures featuring rims also date
from 1986. It would however appear that the first rims were delivered in
either late 1984 or in 1985 but that they were not widely available until 1986.
Had rims been available in 1981 as reported by John, there is no doubt
whatsoever that they would have been included in earlier price lists as well as
part of the 50th anniversary gruppo. The freewheel, saddle and rims all
post-date the 50th anniversary gruppo.
>
> Steven Maasland
> Moorestown, NJ
> USA
------------------------------
Message: 7 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 10:57:14 EDT From: Gdglenn201@aol.com Subject: Re: [CR] Lug lining/striping on 1970s Paramounts To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID: <3ab02.fdd3726.3933d6ca@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I bought a new in the box Paramount P-13 in 1973. I think it cost me about
$400. I was working in a Schwinn shop at the time. It was red and the Nervex lugs were chromed and pin striped in white. The frame could have been build up to about 1+ year earlier than that. The story I was told about the end of the pinstripping was that there was one person at the factory that did the stripping and that she retired in about 1972-73. We didn't get any new Paramounts after mine that were pin stripped. As I recall all of the chrome bikes were stripped and I think they were in red paint. Pin stripping was optional but I can't recall if there was an extra charge for the stripping. The frame was just a bit too big for me and so I sold it and kept the equipment. Which I toke to England with me in the summer of '74 were I had a custom built Mercian Superlight waiting. I spent that summer racing in England and Belgium. I can't remember all the details anymore . It's been over 35 years.
Garland Glenn Tyler, TX
In a message dated 5/29/2010 11:07:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time, classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org writes:
Lug lining/striping on 1970s Paramounts
------------------------------
Message: 8 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 11:49:41 -0400 From: "david" <viciouscycles@excite.com> Subject: Re: [CR] Lug lining/striping on 1970s Paramounts... To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org,oroboyz@aol.com Message-ID: <20100530114941.6373@web009.roc2.bluetie.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hello Dale , I have three 1971's in Chrome (2 NOS ) and none are striped, None of my later bikes are striped .
David Cowie Oakland , Or
-----Original Message----- From: oroboyz@aol.com Date: 05/29/2010 09:06 PM To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR] Lug lining/striping on 1970s Paramounts...
Note: Original message sent as attachment
------------------------------
Message: 9 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 11:02:06 -0500 From: andy rahe <andyrahe@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [CR] Ron Kitching Cyclassic To: Peter Brueggeman <4peebee@peterbrueggeman.com> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID: <AANLkTilBRFnvlxu2sBI12_D7hX0m7fubrF2igICUOzKJ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Wow what a response, this email list seems full of people willing to help and passionate about their bikes to say the least. Dale- I would be honored if you wanted to use my bike for the website. I am really pumped to hear that my find is something kinda special. I do think I would collect and pamper rather than part out, it just seems like the right thing to do. Do you need better pictures? I wonder, I assume most people on this list are both riders and collectors, is that fair? Do you all still have your first "find"? Chris- thanks for the advice on more basic commuter, I'll give it a look. Robert- Thanks for the pix of your kitching, is yours a cyclassic as well? I didn't know they made different colors of the same type of bike. I did find this add on flickr that appears to have my bike to a tee but it's somewhat hard to see, the #2 bike.
http://www.flickr.com/
Maybe you all can explain NOS to me, I understand it mean new old stock. For a collector/collectable bike, is NOS better than original, or is it just different.
Chas- thanks for the reply, i do think that it's kinda rare, but not super rare, which for me is probably a good thing. I think now I plan to ride it occasionally, but should find another daily bike. (that will probably apply to my serotta as well, but that bike sure fits like a glove) It seems that I will not be able to find out who made the frame, but that's ok, im excited to learn about the parts, speaking of which, how am i supposed to be able to tell what kind of parts, so the campy rally derailleur is easy, but the brakes, they just say campagnolo breve italy? are they nuovo record? (it seems there's a lot of info out there about NR) I kind of enjoy how there are parts from all over the globe, makes it interesting to me
Peter- thanks for the excerpt from the catalogs, might have to look into getting one or two of those. I believe my frame is 531 (at least that's what it says on the fork, does that apply to the whole frame)
Thanks so much for everyone's information; it's been very helpful.
andyrahe
Gahanna, ohio, usa
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> http://www.bikelist.org/
>
------------------------------
Message: 10 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 09:07:40 -0700 From: "paccoastcycles" <paccoastcycles@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [CR] [Frame] Flange Positions in Rear Hub To: "Amir Avitzur" <walawalaoxenfree@gmail.com>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, <framebuilders@bikelist.org>, "Mark Stonich" <mark@bikesmithdesign.com> Message-ID: <D9FF9A1E7A4F4DB2ABE42508366A2B2F@ownerd556865ac> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Left side flange position is dependent on over lock nut dimension. Ideally, you make the frame wide enough so that you can have no dish. With wide freewheels, that is the limiter.
I'd start first by designing so that there is a very close proximity between the cogs and the flange on the right side. Some hubs leave too much space there and that aggravates the dish problem and is hard to make up for with left flange position. Boy, I hope that's clear. It makes sense to me, but just reading someone else's (my) words may be harder to understand.
Chuck Hoefer
Pacific Coast Cycles
Oceanside, California
<classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>; <framebuilders@bikelist.org> Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 5:12 AM Subject: Re: [CR] [Frame] Flange Positions in Rear Hub
> At 1:17 PM +0300 5/30/10, Amir Avitzur wrote:
>>The position of the drive side flange on a rear hub is determined by the
>>"over lock nut dimension" and the width of the freewheel or cassette.
>>
>>What determines the position of the non-drive side Flange?
>>
>>I ask because, I'm planning to make my own hubs and don't know what to
>>copy
>>as there are too many options.
>>
>>Is it better for the flanges to be close so as to "equalize" spoke
tension
>>on both sides,
>>or is it better to spread them apart?
>
> My vote is for "close to equalize spoke tension". My son is a strong
> 215 pounder (98Kg) and has had no trouble with 28 spokes on Ritchey
> "Zero" hubs.
> --
>
> Mark Stonich;
> BikeSmith Design & Fabrication
> 5349 Elliot Ave S. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55417 USA
> Ph. (612) 824-2372 http://bikesmithdesign.com
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> http://www.bikelist.org/
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------------------------------
Message: 11 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 12:21:15 -0400 From: "Steven Maasland" <themaaslands@comcast.net> Subject: [CR] Campy rims OT? WTB To: "CR" <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <DBA8F11D14CF420390E815DC8F30052B@ToshibaLaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
John wrote: "I say it's a 1981 Nishiki Ultimate based on the PAT 81 date on the RD and I probably bought it in 1982. These top models were not in the published catalogues. It most definitely had Campagnolo clincher rims when hanging in the bike shop and barring time travel, they could not have been off-topic."
John, please don't take this in the wrong way, but there is absolutely no way that a 1981 or even 1982 Nishiki Ultimate could ever have been originally delivered with Campagnolo clincher rims. Firstly because NO Campagnolo Clincher rims existed at that time. I repeat not a single clincher rim existed at that time. This is also confirmed by Jim Merz's post. Please be aware that Jim was working for the largest customer of Campagnolo worldwide when he saw the first prototype (hence far from production ready) Campagnolo rims at the time of Tullio Campagnolo's memorial service. So delivery to a Japanese/American client being made prior to Campagnolo's biggest customer is simply a matter of science fiction. Secondly, the rims do not appear in the special price list supplement that was prepared in November 1983, nor in the general catalog prepared in May 1984. They first appear in the price list that became valid as of May 2nd, 1986 and in the special "Cerchi" brochure of the fall of 1986, whereupon it should also be highlighted that no mention is made of any clincher rims whatsoever in any of these documents. In the two documents of 1986, there is only mention made of tubular rims.
Steven Maasland Moorestown, NJ USA
------------------------------
Message: 12 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 12:30:15 -0400 From: oroboyz@aol.com Subject: [CR] Yet another blast from the past, DB #7 To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID: <8CCCE2C84D9D199-D9C-13171@webmail-m054.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Thanks for the comments on my last frame outing.. I have been updating web sites (!) and found these wonderful pics by owner Ken Toda of frame #7.
http://cyclesdeoro.com/
Dale Brown cycles de ORO, Inc. 1410 Mill Street #100 Greensboro, North Carolina 27408 USA 336-274-5959 http://www.cyclesdeoro.com http://www.classicrendezvous.com http://www.carolinacup.com ?Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving? A.Einstein
------------------------------
Message: 13 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 09:54:36 -0700 (PDT) From: gillies@ece.ubc.ca (donald gillies) Subject: Re: [CR] Ron Kitching Cyclassic To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID: <20100530165436.A0C5619D8D@ug6.ece.ubc.ca>
I bet this model had, originally, an all-campagnolo touring drivetrain. Campagnolo Rally equipment, while never very common to begin with, fell completely out of fashion on OEM bikes after 1975, suntour simply wiped them out with the release of cyclone in 1975, and superb in 1976, at one half to one third the price there was really nothing the rally offered other than an italian name for your rear derailleur.
The front suntour cyclone is a very close clone of the famous campagnolo record front derailleur, and it was common, if you were replacing a front derailleur and looking to save a few bucks, you would buy a suntour cyclone or similar front derailleur instead.
- Don Gillies San Diego, CA, USA
------------------------------
Message: 14 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 12:56:03 -0400 From: John Betmanis <johnb@oxford.net> Subject: Re: [CR] Campy rims OT? WTB To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID: <4C0298A3.6070106@oxford.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Well then, this will have to remain forever a mystery. I know what I saw and now I wish I'd taken delivery of the bike with those original rims just because of their rarity. I only ever saw another one like it at the time in Mike Barry's shop in Toronto. Perhaps Nishiki had originally speced the bike with Campagnolo rims that were promised, but didn't materialize, so they resorted to stickers. Everything is Campagnolo or 3TTT, except the Japanese bottle cage and toeclips.
-- John Betmanis Woodstock, Ontario Canada
On 30/05/2010 12:21 PM, Steven Maasland wrote:
> John wrote:
> "I say it's a 1981 Nishiki Ultimate based on the PAT 81 date on the RD
> and I probably bought it in 1982. These top models were not in the
> published catalogues. It most definitely had Campagnolo clincher rims
> when hanging in the bike shop and barring time travel, they could not
> have been off-topic."
>
> John, please don't take this in the wrong way, but there is absolutely
> no way that a 1981 or even 1982 Nishiki Ultimate could ever have been
> originally delivered with Campagnolo clincher rims. Firstly because NO
> Campagnolo Clincher rims existed at that time. I repeat not a single
> clincher rim existed at that time. This is also confirmed by Jim Merz's
> post. Please be aware that Jim was working for the largest customer of
> Campagnolo worldwide when he saw the first prototype (hence far from
> production ready) Campagnolo rims at the time of Tullio Campagnolo's
> memorial service. So delivery to a Japanese/American client being made
> prior to Campagnolo's biggest customer is simply a matter of science
> fiction. Secondly, the rims do not appear in the special price list
> supplement that was prepared in November 1983, nor in the general
> catalog prepared in May 1984. They first appear in the price list that
> became valid as of May 2nd, 1986 and in the special "Cerchi" brochure of
> the fall of 1986, whereupon it should also be highlighted that no
> mention is made of any clincher rims whatsoever in any of these
> documents. In the two documents of 1986, there is only mention made of
> tubular rims.
>
> Steven Maasland
> Moorestown, NJ
> USA
------------------------------
Message: 15 Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 17:14:04 +0000 (UTC) From: joeb-z@comcast.net Subject: Re: [CR] Lug lining/striping on 1970s Paramounts To: Gdglenn201@aol.com Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID: <1066797765.18986581275239644863.JavaMail.root@sz0107a.westchester.pa.mail.c omcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
My guess is that after a certain point the P-13 Deluxe got the pinstriping, while the P-12 or P-10 did not. Mybe 1964 or so.
Joe Bender-Zanoni
Whitneyville, CT
I bought a new in the box Paramount P-13 in 1973. I think it cost me about $400. I was working in a Schwinn shop at the time. It was red and the Nervex lugs were chromed and pin striped in white. The frame could have been build up to about 1+ year earlier than that. The story I was told about the end of the pinstripping was that there was one person at the factory that did the stripping and that she retired in about 1972-73. We didn't get any new Paramounts after mine that were pin stripped. As I recall all of the chrome bikes were stripped and I think they were in red paint. Pin stripping was optional but I can't recall if there was an extra charge for the stripping. The frame was just a bit too big for me and so I sold it and kept the equipment. Which I toke to England with me in the summer of '74 were I had a custom built Mercian Superlight waiting. I spent that summer racing in England and Belgium. I can't remember all the details anymore . It's been over 35 years.
Garland Glenn Tyler, TX
In a message dated 5/29/2010 11:07:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time, classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org writes:
Lug lining/striping on 1970s Paramounts _______________________________________________
------------------------------
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End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 89, Issue 109 **************************************************