Kevin (and all not at Cirque)- Having taken classes from tow mentioned here I thought I'd add my antidote and opinion.
Eisentraut class 1979, Rutland VT. I believe that this was the last year Al offered an East Coast class. There were 8 students of mixed experience. One had a few frames under his belt, a few others some torch/braze on exposure, the rest were complete newbies including a high school kid. We had two weeks and went from classroom to work shop in a couple of days. Brazing teaching and practice went another couple of days. Then we started cutting and joining. At the end of the class one had a finished ready to paint bike, a few needed a little to a bunch of finishing work on the otherwise done frames, A few had a lot of filing and most all the finishing but completely brazed frames and the kid had bridges still to do (after some one on one w/ Al). Out of that class came Rob Stowe (Serotta, Terry Precision, Phase Three and Stowe).
Fast forward to 2008 and Dug Fattic's brazing class (to build a bike patterned after his Ukraine Project bike). Two students, me and a fellow who is a very experienced engineer. 5 days of mostly shop work. Very little design discussion. One student went home with a frame done but for braze ones, the other practiced and played with Doug's shop and might finish the bridges and bits later. While we were working away Doug and I talked allot about the business of building, the history (which I'm guilty of not following much) of building and teaching such (I've guided a few through their first frame or two). When he heard of my Eisentraut experience he was surprised at the number of attendees and the then short class time.
Different people want a different experience out of a class. Some just want to be part of the magic. Some are "EFIers" and want to do every process. I just wanted to watch and learn both times.
> Having just come across another one of these ...'build your own
> frame'........in 5 days! classes......I wonder what the list, or
> individuals think of the Idea [I won't disclose the name of the class out
> of respect]
> Now I know there are some good classes out there, like Doug Fattics, but I
> would imagine the length of the course would be somewhat longer than 5
> days?
>
> I don't know.......maybe its because I've been a framebuilder since
> 71......and I was taught slowly, methodically and became 'in tune' with
> working with metal.......I just can't see how anyone can produce a decent
> [safe] frame in 5 days.
>
> If I were to teach someone the skills in framebuilding [actually something
> I may seriously consider in the future] I wouldn't try and rush them into
> producing a frame within such a short timescale.
> I just can't imagine when I first started at Bob jackson's in June 71 that
> at the end of the first week I would have made my first frame!.........I
> remember we had Matt Assenmacher come over from the states to learn, and
> Danny Foster [the master builder and my mentor] 'rushed' Matt through the
> basics, but from memory he was with us for at least 6 months! [and went on
> to be a very accomplished framebuilder]
>
> I seem to remember it was several months before I was allowed to use a
> brazing torch, before then I was filing lugs, cutting tubes........going
> for the fish and chips on a Friday!...filing more lugs and so
> on.......until finally, with Danny supervising me, I brazed up a pair of
> Campag dropouts into the chainstays......
>
> I think some of these courses merely skirt around the basics.........I
> mean, in 5 days your going to learn how to;-
> cut and file lugs.......
> cut and mitre tubes [to the correct length!]
> learn about the geometry, angles, clearances etc, and what is and isn't
> the best set up for a particular frame........
> learn how to braze, be it capillary or perhaps even more tricky, fillet
> brazing.......
> learn how to keep the frame in alignment!......
> Then there's the cleaning up, filing and finishing.......as well as
> cutting & reaming etc.
> Any one of those tasks would take more than 5 days to become
> proficient........oh, I don't know maybe I'm just having a whinge......but
> it does touch a 'nerve'
>
> sorry for the rant.........
>
> Kevin Sayles
> Bridgwater Somerset UK
> _______________________________________________
Andrew R Stewart
Rochester, NY