I understand your point about being dogmatic. At the end of the day, it's what works best I suppose, and is sustainable. When I raced back in the early 60's (track) we always used the widest flange hubs and shortest spoke lengths to do the job. Hence, 3x spokes were shorter than 4x spokes, while at the same time achieved true tangential patterns w/o head/adjacent spoke interference.
There are many ways to skin a cat though. I recall a Polish sprinter that I raced against one time who always used radial spokes up front (track) for the same reason (short spokes, no need for push/pull or braking tangentiality (is that a word?) on front wheel etc.
Life isn't perfect, and finding alternatives that work is sometimes more fun than adherence to collective wisdom.
JB 78 years young, and 60 years since I started in the business (of competitive cycling, building, maintaining and managing my fleet of racing cycles)
On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 10:12 PM, Dale Brown <dalebbrown@gmail.com> wrote:
> John wrote:
> "I don't know how you can say "they do amazingly well".
> Ha ha! Many 1960s and 1970s bikes, esp track irons, used wheels built this
> way reliably for years and years. I agree it's pretty funky but it works. I
> have seen them, worked on them and even built wheels myself HF and 4X. Guess
> you haven't talked to all the wheel builders yet! :)
> The lesson here, in my opinion, is for us not to be dogmatic or absolutist
> about things BICYCLE, many practices have happily existed that may be less
> than optimum in theory...
>
> Dale (45 years in the trade)
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 8:56 PM, John Businger <jbusinger@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I don't know how you can say "they do amazingly well" if something is not
>> by design. There is not a wheelbuilder in the world who would ever recommend
>> the practice of spokes touching adjacent spoke heads. Sometimes bad ideas
>> survive, but that's about it.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Dale Brown <dalebbrown@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John wrote:
>>> <<Dont'r recommend 4x as the spokes will touch adjacent spoke heads>>
>>>
>>> Actually quite a few On Topic bikes came with wheels using 4X on High
>>> Flange hubs. Despite over lapping spokes, etc. they do amazingly well...
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 3:41 PM, John Businger <jbusinger@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dont'r recommend 4x as the spokes will touch adjacent spoke heads. 2x
>>>> not recommended either as you will not achieve true tangential spoking
>>>> (push/pill). Radial will work as long as you maintain even and maximum
>>>> tension.
>>>>
>>>> John Businger,
>>>> Brookline, MA
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 7:01 PM, <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 2x, 3x, 4x are fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't recommend radial because of the damage risks involved...
>>>>>
>>>>> =8-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert Shackelford
>>>>> San Jose, CA USA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Quoting Richard Cielec <teaat4p@gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Ahoy !
>>>>> > Re: Campag High Flange hubs, NR/SR, Tipo, 1970's- End of Time Line
>>>>> > I am asking for reason of my definite ignorance of the physics and
>>>>> > stresses placed upon hub flanges.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Are radial and 2X crossings compatible with these high flange hubs
>>>>> 32H
>>>>> > and 36H ? Assumption is that hubs are in good condition, of course.
>>>>> > Application would be road riding, not racing. Clilncher and tubular
>>>>> > rims. Rider weight approx. 140 lbs.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thank you
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Richard Cielec
>>>>> > Chicago, Illinois; U.S.A.
>>>>> >
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>>> Dale Brown
>>> cycles de ORO, Inc.
>>> 1410 Mill Street, Ste 100
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> --
> Dale Brown
> cycles de ORO, Inc.
> 1410 Mill Street, Ste 100
> Greensboro, North Carolina USA 27408-2105
> 336.274.5959
> http://www.cyclesdeoro.com
> http://www.classicrendezvous.com
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>
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