I agree that the Nagasawa lugsets are beautiful, and they seem very easy to work with, and I'm certain that there's skill involved in making a frame with them. Their design is exquisite....but I do wonder a bit about (and am slightly upset by) the extent to which they mimic what a master framebuilder might/would do with real dropouts and tubing. It almost strikes me as disingenuous to make a plug-joined investment-cast part that looks like a contoured-tip dropout with an open-tube stay (or fork blade), complete with drawn-back braze.
Furthermore, if one is making these parts (moreover, creating the original masters), they could've done most *anything* with the design (arbitrary amounts of detail, novel shapes, etc.), and this is what was chosen?
I'm sure that opinions vary, but I think I want a little more craftsmanship if I'm paying what these frames go for. I know it was expensive to tool up these parts, and I'm sure the unit cost is considerable, but there has also been a lot of time to amortize that initial expense.
Sorry...just feeling a little growly this evening (and those pictures of the pre-investment-cast Nagasawa just drove home my point...so much sweeter to know it's all *real* craft).
Scott Minneman San Francisco, CA USA
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces+minneman=onomy.com@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces+minneman=onomy.com@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Brent Steelman Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:08 PM To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR] Nagasawa love ?
I really like the Nagasawa styling, but it is true, the frames are very plug and play. He has invested a lot in having the lugs and dropouts as close to the finished product as possible. So, there is very little left to do after the very skillful brazing has cooled. I don't thing this is good or bad, but it accomplishes a fine result without too much work. Suited to the end use I think. Brent
Steelman Cycles 3600 Haven Ave #5 Redwood City, CA 94063 tel:650-364-3939 fax:650-364-4029 info@steelmancycles.com http://www.steelmancycles.com
On 2/8/2011 8:43 PM, Robert Clair wrote:
> ... what is with this Nagasawa love ? Nagasawa and nearly all other
> certified japanese keirin frame builders have used cut-and-plug fork
> dropouts for a number of years now. no framebuilding "mystic" there
> (recall treks from the 80"s). as for filing "shorelines" on lugs ...
> are you crazy !
>
> ... these frames are just worhorses that can be taken out on the first
> ride ... any little bump/dent in the frame (usually on the side of a
> top tube, from the bar hitting it) on a crash will disqualify it.
> why do you think all the ebay used keirin frames these days come with
> an installed headset (usually hatta swan) and bb (without the
> bolts). they move on quickly ... and move on.
>
> ... anyway, there seems to be more than the usual keirin frames on
> ebay these days ... that have the older (classic) construction
> methods. good bargains i say ... talk about thinning the heard over
> there). i just got an "older" 56 cm Stratos that is as mint as it
> can be. soft white paint, gold sparkle, lug/support cutouts like
> american builders used to do before they got dementia and went crazy
> on excess.
>
> ... your mileage may vary (who said that on the list by the way :)
> robert clair
> alexandria, va
> usa