I'm a bit of a "fair-use" freak too and remember the debate you're speaking of. One of the issues was thet Hollywood never wanted trademarks to expire and it was mainly Disney who had the issue since famed cartoons would have become "public domain." Imagine Mickey Mouse being used to sell Pepsi without Disney getting a penny. You can see where this is going. As far as I remember it never got anywhere and the law stayed 70 years, but you could do something to defend you copyright if it was still in use. It was really a semantics issue in the end. So who wants to start making Ivor Johnsons and Sterlings again? enjoy, monkeyman aka Brandon Ives
PS: monkeyman cycles isn't going to happen, but I may call Jason's kilo bike the flying monkey, that does have a nice ring. Or in Jason's case gorilla. But in no way to be related to Flying Scot bikes.
"Nobody can do everything, but if everybody did something everything would get done." Gil Scott-Heron
On Thu, 24 May 2001, Moos, Jerry wrote:
> I stand corrected, it would of course be a trademark matter, although
> perhaps the decals/ logo could be copyrighted, if they were sufficiently
> unique. I don't want to open a decal debate like those in the past, but
> does anyone know whether decals for classic bikes would normally be
> considered trademarks, or copyrighted material, or both? If copyrights, I
> just read an article explaining that Congress, during the Clinton
> administration, passed a drastic revision of the copyright laws, extending
> the copyright protection to (I believe it stated) 70 years after the death
> of the author. The article implied this was done by Clinton at the biding
> of Hollywood, who heavily contributed to Clinton financially, and wanted to
> perpetuate their copyrights to movies and books they were based on, to allow
> them to profit from sequels, remakes, etc. Does anyone know if this new
> legislation applies to artwork incorporated in bike decals, or only to books
> and movies?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Bender-Zanoni [mailto:jfbender@umich.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 4:31 PM
> To: Moos, Jerry; 'Monkeyman'; Bob Reid
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: RE: [CR]Flying Scot picks up the American gauntlet
>
>
> "Flying Scot" would be a trademark for bicycles, not a copyright. Flying
> Scot does not have sufficient expressive content for copyright protection.
>
> The name has never been registered in the US for bicycles per the US Patent
> and Trademark Office.
>
> Protection is available for non-registered trademarks, but not when the
> name is no longer used in commerce in the US, as is the case with Flying
> Scot. At this point anyone could use the trademark in the US and even
> register it.
>
> So Brandon could grab Flying Scot, I think Flying Monkey would be a better
> choice.
>
> Joe
>
> At 10:53 AM 5/24/01 -0400, Moos, Jerry wrote:
> >Sounds like maybe someone engaged in a little copyright infringement. I
> >suppose if a CA seller had these made in Taiwan, a locally-focused firm in
> >Scotland would be unlikely to discover it.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Jerry Moos
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Monkeyman [mailto:monkey37@bluemarble.net]
> >Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:23 AM
> >To: Bob Reid
> >Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> >Subject: Re: [CR]Flying Scot picks up the American gauntlet
> >
> >
> >I really don't want to get involved in another stupid battle. Look,
> >it, may one of "your" Flying Scots, but it is A Flying Scot. It's a
> >cheap bike boom Japanese built, it's not a relabled anything. After
> >15 years as a mechanic I can tell relabeled bikes. I'd love to send
> >you perfect pictures, you send me the camera. . . better yet if
> >you're willing to pay the shipping I'll send the bike to you. The
> >bike can be yours for shipping. My guess is someone in the US during
> >the bike boom saw a Flying Scot and liked them then had a bunch of
> >bikes label Flying Scot in Asia to sell in his auto parts store.
> >Again, if you want better info on the bike send me a camera or
> >shipping money.
> >enjoy,
> >Brandon"monkeyman"Ives
> >
> >PS: I don't mean to be harsh I'm just getting a little tired of the
> >fire storm surrounding me.
> >
> >>Trust you guys, to pick a fight when I'm away from the computer.......
> >>>
> >>> OK, at my apartment complex is a Flying Scot and it's an absolute
> >>> department store bike. What's the story with these? It seems like a
> >>> strange name to licence out to POS bikes?
> >>> enjoy,
> >>> Brandon"monkeyman"Ives
> >>
> >>(Brandon) Despite your rather poor quality pictures from what I can see
> >that
> >>is not a Flying Scot. If you knew even the remotest bit about the
> company
> >>or chose to take the time to look at the marque, or even my Website you
> >>would be very suspicious as well. Give me the frame number (and the
> >>location of them) and some decent photographs of the lugs, frame ends, BB
> >>shell and head tube badge I'll let you know.
> >>
> >>Now for a very brief :-) history lesson ;
> >>
> >>At no time were Flying Scot's ever built under licence - The original
> >>company ran solely with the name until around 1983 and from this time the
> >>trade mark "The Flying Scot" was purchased by a local Cycle shop owner -
> >who
> >>on a rare occassion has them built to order by Dave Yates at M.Steel's.
> >>
> >>At it's peak David Rattray's (small) company produced Flying Scot frames
> >>and cycles from 1928 to about 1983 (war years excluded) at a maximum rate
> >of
> >>1000 units a year - one year only (though I've never seen any with a frame
> >>number above 700) and 5-600 a year seem a bit more realistic.
> >>
> >>The companies products were so succesful (club, touring, road, track) for
> >>it's size that there was no need to (a) advertise globally or in fact in
> >>anything other than local cycling publications (b) Bother attending the
> >>annual cycling show in London. If you didn't know what a Flying Scot was
> >>(and I don't mean a "bicycle") you were certainly not a club cyclist.
> >>Quality and reputation alone sold these bikes in volumes that there small
> >>factory (the back shop) could cope with
> >>
> >>ALL frames were made from Reynolds H.M. / 531 or K.R.O.M.O. (briefly for
> a
> >>few years after WWII) and ALL used quality lugs. almost every lug style
> >>available from a variety of manufacturers during the production years was
> >>offered as an option and appears on a frame somewhere - remember these
> were
> >>almost all custom made.
> >>
> >>Many Flying Scot's were exported abroad, including many to the U.S and
> >>Canada - a lot of these were bought "blind" by letter - again sold on
> >>quality and reputation alone.
> >>
> >>As Flying Scot's were never cheap, from time to time you do come across
> >>fakes - These were not fakes in that they were intended to be sold as
> such,
> >>just some folks thought if they badged up their cheap bike, everyone would
> >>think they had one - such was the attraction of the name. There was a
> >short
> >>spell before the companies demise, when Steyr-Puch (who took a 49% share
> in
> >>the company in the 70's and whose manager kindly burnt all the frame
> >records
> >>one day) were "alleged" to be pushing out any old junk with the Flying
> Scot
> >>badge on it to get money in - This is unsubstantiated, but considering
> they
> >>had difficulty selling there own crap bikes, not beyond the realms of
> >>possibility. I am interested Brandon - to know If that bike is one of the
> >>SDP products as I've never seen one.
> >>
> >>If you think this is all B.S. the 12th International Cycling History
> >>Conference is scheduled to be held 26-28 September 2001 in Sanremo, Italy
> -
> >>And one of the proposed papers to be presented is on David Rattray's
> >company
> >>- not bad for a KRAZEE-KUTS MART bike ?
> >>
> >>I'll make two offers ;
> >>
> >>(a) If your ever end up touring Scotland and your in the North-East of
> >>Scotland, call in to the shop. I'd gladly allow you a spin on one for
> >>"nominal" refundable deposit as security.
> >>
> >>(b) I'll back Bruce up in his offer to Brian of a frame when the next one
> >>comes up. I must admit that a non-Scot evaluation of the build quality
> >>would be of great value if a little naval gazing.............you know
> >>watching ships.....
> >>
> >>Well, thanks for winding me up..............
> >>
> >>Bob Reid
> >>Stonehaven
> >>Scotland.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >--
> >Huge Spring Cleaning Bike Parts Sale
> ><http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~mkirklan/salepage/sale.html>
> >
> >!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >Nobody can do everything,
> >but if everybody did something
> >everything would get done.
> > -Gil Scott Heron-
> >!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!