My point is not one that directly conflicts with what you've said. It is simply that while 753 and 531 (and not 653) are designations that in their purest from indicate a material, all the commmon designations like 531C, 753R, etc. refer to specific products (tube assemblages of particular specifications). I'm sure that established custom frame builders buy their tubing a la carte, but I also know that consumers buy production bikes based on stickers. I've always assumed that a high quality production bike bike with a 531C sticker had a specific set of tubes, at least that's how we always represented the bike to the consumer. Frankly most buyers would be oblivious to anything beyond the 531 designation, so I guess in some twisted way it all comes full circle and the "C/SL/R" designations were immaterial even in those cases where they did have meaning.
Tom Dalton
> I'm not sure what the question is here...
> 531 was one material. 753 was another.
> One was chrome/mangy and the other was
> slightly different and heat treated as well.
> 653 main tubes were simply cold-worked
> 531 tubes. A 653 <set> was made up of these
> main tubes along with stays and forks from
> the 753 range. Regardless, few builders actually
> bought a pre-boxed set of any of this stuff. They
> (we) ordered these top tubes and those seatstays
> along with these here fork blades, and from our
> own inventory, created a frame set.
> 531C and Speedstream came way later and those
> tubes, too, were available in singles. 531C was
> simply
> a pre-boxed set of Reynold's own mix of 531 in
> specific shapes and guages.
> Re: the 531SL...this was a lighter weight, pre-boxed
> set of tubes that preceeded 653 pre-boxed sets.
> Where do we go from here?
> e-RICHIE (I'm going to start drinking coffee again)
>
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:06:32 -0800 (PST) Tom Dalton
> <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com> writes:
> > Ritchie:
> >
> > I cant place the reference. I think its from
> Dune
> > or something, and of course it also refers to
> > Reynolds certification program. My impression is
> > that the program was intended to certify that the
> > builder was not a complete hack and to boost the
> 753
> > mystique.
> >
> > I have to take issue, at least to a degree, on
> your
> > assertion that 531 and 753 were materials and not
> > tubesets. Of course the 531 and 753 designations
> do
> > represent the ratios of alloying elements
> (Mn/Mo/Cr?)
> > in the two different steels, but other appended
> > information indicated specific tubesets. 531SL,
> 531C,
> > 531CS, 531 Speed Stream, 753R
Were these not all
> > specific tubes sets with distinct gauges and, in
> some
> > cases, distinct profiles? I have no doubt that
> 531
> > was available in a zillion configurations, and
> that
> > builders would buy downtubes, top-tubes etc. with
> the
> > specific dimensions they wanted, thus making
> > designations like 531C and 531CS irrelevant.
> > However, I find it difficult to imagine that TI
> > Reynolds could offer an exotic heat-treated
> tubeset
> > like 753 in more than a couple of gauges and the
> > standard set of external dimensions, at least
> during
> > the classic period. I suspect that the original
> 753
> > was a specific superlight tubeset and the later
> 753R
> > was a second, more robust tubeset, and there was
> > little else in that product line until the later
> OS
> > sets.
> >
> > Also, for what its worth, the Reynolds numbering
> > system definitely broke down with the introduction
> of
> > 653, which was not a specific alloy, and was a
> > specific tubeset. My hazy recollection was that
> the
> > stays were from the 753R set, and the main
> triangle
> > was 531C. Incidentally, Gerald ODonovan
> basically
> > scoffed at me when I asked about the 653 tubeset,
> > suggesting that a rider of my size (61/165lbs,
> back
> > then) belonged on 753. Given that he was
> instrumental
> > in developing 753, and that I already owned a 653
> > bike, I took it all with a grain of salt
or a
> teeny
> > tiny grain of steel.
> >
> > Tom Dalton
> >
> > --- Richard M Sachs <richardsachs@juno.com> wrote:
> > > tom, jack, fred, et al...
> > > 753 was a MATERIAL, not a tube set. The material
> > > was produced in many guages in all the
> > > typical-of-the-era
> > > diameters and shapes. The same was/is true for
> 531.
> > > (And Tange Prestige, for that matter). Most
> > > consumers
> > > would be familiar with the products from all the
> old
> > > ads showing
> > > a box 'o pipes with the Reynolds logos all over
> it.
> > > Few builders
> > > actually bought the pre-packaged sets as shown
> in
> > > the ads
> > > and catalog tear sheets. Most bought their tubes
> in
> > > the guages
> > > appropriate for the job at hand. Thus, 753
> 'could'
> > > be heavier
> > > than 531, depending on the choices made. The
> > > material's
> > > characteristics were different and you didn't
> have
> > > to have
> > > ''The Knowledge''*** unless you were buying the
> 753
> > > pipes.
> > > The lightest, thinnest 531 was similar to its
> 753
> > > counterpart.
> > > Rule Brittania!!
> > > e-RICHIE, shopworn
> > > ***anyone get the reference?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 14:21:57 -0800 (PST) Tom
> Dalton
> > > <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com> writes:
> > > > Half a dozen frame builders will correct me
> after
> > > I
> > > > say this but...
> > > >
> > > > The original 753 was a very thin gauge tubeset
> > > that
> > > > took advantage of the heat treated alloy's
> high
> > > yield
> > > > and tensile strengths to "get away with" very
> thin
> > > > walled tubes. Since the stiffness (modulus?)
> of
> > > steel
> > > > tubes doesn't change with different alloys,
> the
> > > > super-thin early 753 built up into pretty
> flexy
> > > > frames. 753R was introduced with a bit of
> extra
> > > meat
> > > > and built into frames that were closer in
> > > stiffness
> > > > and weight to ordinary 531 frames. I think
> the
> > > 753
> > > > tubes were a touch lighter than 531C, and
> > > supposedly
> > > > they could be built into very lively
> framesets.
> > > >
> > > > Tom Dalton
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Jack Bissell <jackbissell@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > My recently acquired 753R Peugeot frame has
> > > chrome
> > > > > on the stays. Isn't that
> > > > > considered a no-no by Reynolds? I've seen
> chrome
> > > on
> > > > > the very-similar 753 "z"
> > > > > team bikes as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, what is 753R? This frame weighs 1/4 lb
> > > less
> > > > > than my TI-Raleigh 753.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jack "mention team Raleighs and noone will
> > > notice
> > > > > I'm off topic by 3 years "
> > > > > Bissell
> > > > > Tucson, Az-- crisp, clear 50s
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
>
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/