i fully agree with gilbert's assessment.
apologies to those who hate these 'attaboys'.
e-RICHIE
Richard Sachs Cycles
No.9, North Main Street
Chester, CT 06412 USA
http://www.richardsachs.com
Tel. 860.526.2059
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:43:09 EDT CYCLESTORE@aol.com writes:
> Hello all,
>
> Chiming in. Please don't assume that most people on this list are in
>
> agreement on your thoughts below without a real vote. Some people
> are quite,
> polite, just don't want a squabble or simply think this discussion
> area is
> trivial.
>
> I personally don't agree or disagree with the controversy. As
> Einstein once
> said after being asked "What is the truth? The answer; depends."
>
> Suppose on the Mercier and Motobecane question. Is there a
> connection to the
> original builders (lets call them owners)? I'd say absolutely yes!
> They were
> and/or are paid money for the use of the name in a certain market.
> This is a
> direct connection though certainly not as altruistic as one might
> hope for.
> Bicycles are products and business is business. These companies
> built product
> to sell and one product; reputation is hopefully worth something as
> well. If
> the name has value and the owners want to sell it to a market that
> they
> cannot service and perhaps collect current or future income, why
> not. It is
> property.
>
> If you own a business that say fixes clocks. You can at retirement
> or sooner
> sell franchises to Aldo's Clock Shop (I love the name Aldo), sell
> just the
> clock shop inventory, parts and tools or maybe even sell the whole
> hopefully
> fully functional business to a willing party. Aldo may be counting
> on this
> income for his retirement. What Aldo can do with his clock shop is
> Aldo's
> business, the market place will narrow his options but it's Aldo's
> to sink or
> swim with.
>
> Motobecane has probably been sold a few times in it's history
> (wasn't Derby
> an owner) and is pretty removed from it's founders history I suspect
> anyway.
>
> The Peugeot bicycle company was sold off from the family's name
> sake car
> business years ago. The passion may still be there as I was told by
> Gilles
> Berthoud years a go he was building a bike for Mr. Peugeot's personal
> use.
> I'll bet it had a checkerboard decal or two though.
>
> Bianchi is a large firm with significant heritage but how close is
> it to the
> founder or their family, not very I would imagine.
>
> What about Raleigh. They haven't built bikes in England or the USA
> for years
> but proudly have USA and British flags on their respective
> products.
>
> With these broad and general observations (not trying to be unkind,
> just make
> a point) of these makers where do you draw the line?
>
> I have a Rene Herse I bought from Cycles Rene Herse, ordered in the
> shop from
> Lille Herse (Rene's daughter and former road racing champion of
> France) in a
> cackle of broken French. It was built for me by her husband and
> Rene's long
> term apprentice and delivered 8 months or so later. The builders
> work is
> noted by some as finer than the master builder Rene himself. Rene
> Herse
> himself had passed away a few years before I was able to place my
> order. I
> have had so called knowledgeable people claim the bike is a
> reproduction
> because of these stated origins.
>
>
> Nearby in Paris, Ernest Souka (sic) gets up every morning and goes
> to work.
> He has one of the best reputations in the world for building high
> quality
> touring bikes, legendary. He reportedly builds no frames. His
> brother did
> build until his death a few decades back. His old boss did until his
> death
> even longer ago. His brand is known as Alex Singer. How close he is
> really
> connected it is reported to subcontract most construction?
>
> Condor Cycles in London has an amazing reputation for building high
>
> performance lightweights. Eric Clapton owns one. Promotional photos
> often
> show the owners holding a torch. Condor Cycles reportedly has never
> built any
> frame. All subcontracted. Are they fakes?
>
> What about our friends at Rivendell? What would our little world be
> like
> without the vision of Grant Peterson at Rivendell? What would it be
> without
> the folks mentioned above? Better or worse. Are these people really
> frauds
> and impostors, hucksters trying to dupe a willing public?
>
> I talked to an owner of an ancient Bates (1939?) and a modern Bates
> (new
> built 2000 or so) this morning. He owns both sides of this sticky
> coin and
> loves both.
>
> I think it is absolutely wonderful that enthusiast cyclists have
> adopted and
> reintroduced these classic marques like Bates and Hetchins. They are
>
> certainly riding on the coattails of the originals perhaps but they
> must be
> doing it for the joy of continuing to offer these fine products to
> the world.
> Small bike builders are smart and talented people and can do almost
> anything
> for more money (most of them did) than building elaborate bicycle
> frames (A
> simple job welding could probably give most a 500% annual salary
> increase).
> To assume that somehow on the numbers that these classics are
> produced in, at
> the prices charged that someone is reaping enormous profits is I
> suspect very
> unlikely. After all they had to also buy the name or licensing fees
> (many
> are quite low I also suspect because ROI is scant). One thing the
> buying
> public might now enjoy is better quality of these so called
> reproductions of
> the classics and the ability to utilize modern (and available) very
> finely
> functional parts.
>
> I think we need to ask ourselves, is our world a better place with
> new Bates
> or Hetchins being (and others) produced or not. Aside from who makes
> the real
> Hetchins side story I have to say it is a better place with these
> products
> than without them.
>
> Our opinions are our own, mine included.
>
> On the Chinese/Tiawanese Mericier's/Motobecane; if you are
> considering a
> modern ride like a Giant why not pick up the non French alternate if
> it suits
> your needs and budget. I think these mass produced bands have
> little in
> common with the small volume hand builts some dedicated folks are
> trying to
> keep alive.
>
> Regards,
>
> Gilbert "The more the merrier as far as bikes and bikes are
> concerned"
> Anderson
> Raleigh, NC
> USA
>
>
> In a message dated 10/24/02 9:56:11 AM,
> classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org writes:
>
> << From: Michael Murphy <murphy@io.com>
>
> Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:09:11 PM US/Central
>
> To: "Jerry & Liz Moos" <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Subject: Re: [CR]RE: Taiwan Motobecanes et al
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 23, 2002, at 08:35 PM, Jerry & Liz Moos
> wrote:
>
>
> > I think I know what I am saying, namely that in my view, to be a
> "real"
>
> > example of a marque, a product must either be (A) produced by a
> person
>
> > or
>
> > firm with some significant link to the original producer, like
> Bianchi
>
> > or
>
> > Peugeot or (B) be produced per designs and/or methods as near as
>
> > practical
>
> > to the original like Bates or Hetchins. The current Mercier and
>
> > Motobecane
>
> > do neither, and are therefore, in my opinion fakes and frauds.
> People
>
> > who
>
> > buy based on image unsubstantiated by substance or tradition are
> in my
>
> > opinion gullible fools. Unfortunately our current society is full
> of
>
> > such
>
> > people. Of course those who think image is everything are
> entitled to
>
> > their
>
> > opinion. I am obliged to tolerate their opinion, but not to
> respect
>
> > it.
>
> > Least anyone feel insulted, I don't think anyone on this list fits
> that
>
> > description.
>
> >
>
> > Regards,
>
> >
>
> > Jerry Moos
>
> > Houston, TX
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
> I agree completely with Jerry. I think that the intellectual basis
> for
>
> the community of this list joins in this agreement.
>
> I bear no grudge toward those who purchase these old badges and then
>
>
> turn profit if they never claim to be continuing the history of the
>
>
> badge. Furthermore, I cannot believe that anyone who purchases a
>
> current badged version of a previously historically significant line
>
>
> expects their purchase to be traditionally significant. I might have
>
>
> been so naive as a child in the sixties: I think that all
> contemporary
>
> buyers are much more aware.
>
>
> Michael Murphy
>
> Paige, Texas
>
>
> >>