>
> Pat,
>
> I appreciate your concern for the list. The discussion has been taken to a
> different forum and the parties are making progress towards a better
> understanding of one another. Occassionally some of the undercurrents of
the
> situation that are not known by everyone surface. I apologize if this was
> disturbing to you. Some of the issues are passionate to some of us in
> various ways. I do my best to always be diplomatic and honest. Sometimes
> even a little theatrics come into play. Again, I apologize if my delivery
> was a bit harsh. But I also feel, having seen how these discussions can
go,
> that this tack proved to be effecient in opening the doors of
communication.
>
> My only purpose is to do what I can to contribute to the understanding of
> the bikes we all love. I am convinced that ALL bikes can be fun and
> rewarding to ride and don't have to be considered "the untimate weapon" to
> be worthy of appreciation. A bike can be heavy and still give a great ride
> and deliver miles of pleasurable experiences. One's relationship with the
> bike is ultimately more important than what it is made of or who built it.
> Everyone has different taste, which is why so may different variables of
the
> bicycle exist. It is in fact the most wonderful thing about the bike. They
> are very personal if you treat them that way. There are always numerous
> perspectives from which to view the topics. Not everyone is going to
agree,
> nor do we have to. All we need to know is that we're all here for the same
> reason, right?
>
> Brian Baylis
> La Mesa, CA
> I'm going to stand in the corner facing the wall now for a half an hour,
> just to punish myself. Should be ready to come out just about the time the
> baseball game starts.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rocketman531 <rocketman531@earthlink.net>
> To: Brian Baylis <rocklube@adnc.com>; <stevens@veloworks.com>
> Cc: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 10:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [CR]Masi/Peter Rich Story
>
>
> > Gentlemen,
> >
> > While I like nothing better than an informed and well presented
> argument/discussion on the topic of bicycles, it might be wise to read the
> statement of purpose on the CR home page, especially the part about
> "offering camaraderie among the buffs".
> > I think Brian's response, espcially the closing remarks, were a bit too
> contentious to be appropriate for the list. That tone does nothing to
> encourage healthy discussion among list members.
> >
> > Pat Moffat
> > Tempe, AZ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian Baylis <rocklube@adnc.com>
> > Sent: Oct 15, 2003 3:41 AM
> > To: stevens@veloworks.com
> > Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > Subject: Re: [CR]Masi/Peter Rich Story
> >
> > Steven,
> >
> > You seem to have an interesting position regarding the issue of
> > framebuilding and craftsmanship which comes out every time I mention the
> > topic. Since we're all here (I assume) on account of a special love and
> > appreciation for classic vintage lightweight bikes; I have to wonder why
> > there is such a defensive attitude towards me and what I stand for.
Since
> > talk is cheap, I think it best to judge a person by their actions as
> opposed
> > to what they say; although what one says is also an action. I feel that
> > pretty much everyone who is on this list has a sincere interest in
vintage
> > bikes from every perspective and is here to learn more about, and share
> > their passion for bikes. If one isn't collecting, riding, and preserving
> > these machines I think that maybe they are in the wrong place. I suspect
> at
> > least a certain amount of the misunderstanding between us comes from the
> > "internet" based relationship that we have. One thing I have learned
about
> > communicating strictly through email is that people quite easily
> > misunderstand one another and also seem to not realize what kind of
person
> > is really on the other end of the conversation. Knowing this, I have
done
> my
> > best not to enter into many of the debates that come up on the list that
> > involve arguing about all kinds of important or unimportant subjects.
> > Sometimes they are just personality conflicts. I have no interest in
> > engageing in this sort of discussion and really think that perhaps if we
> > actually met each other that a new respect would be found.......or maybe
> > not. Be that as it may, I feel compelled, on behalf of some of the very
> > dedicated few framebuilders who excell at not only workmanship, but as
you
> > say, the entire project of building a custom bicycle. Perhaps if you
knew
> > more about what makes someone like Richard Moon, Peter Johnson, and
Peter
> > Weigle tick, you would not be so antanonistic towards this approach to
> > framebuilding. These people work long and hard to create frames that are
> in
> > no way, shape, or form a compromise simply on account of the fact that
> they
> > have gone a step further in the framebuilding process by being creative,
> > stylish, or artistic. I get the feel from your statements that you think
> > these are negative traits to modern frames. Personally I would consider
> that
> > an insult to the efforts and talent these people wish to express. But
> > further, I think logic will dictate that quite the opposite of what you
> > state is true.
> >
> > You say there is a whole lot more to framebuilding that just the three
> lugs
> > and BB shell and that pretty filing does not improve the frame. That may
> be
> > true, but there is something far more important that it DOES indicate
> about
> > a frame/framebuilder. As I said before, talk is cheap. All the talk,
> > advertising, and promotion in the world will not change the fact that
> those
> > who revel in and enjoy the art and craftsmanship of creating truely
custom
> > frames NEVER drop the ball when it comes to the things that you list as
> the
> > part of framebuilding that there is more to. Occassionally someone will
> try
> > to get artsy before they have mastered the basic skills of
framebuilding;
> > but is rather rare. In fact, if one hasn't got a grasp of frame design,
> > selection of materials, and brazing skills you can't (or shouldn't) call
> > yourself a framebuilder. Those things ARE the basics of framebuilding.
> With
> > very few exceptions, every framebuilder has a competent ability to
perform
> > these tasks. After a few years anyone can be top notch in these areas
and
> > after a certain amount of time one MIGHT get a little faster at the
> basics;
> > but it's just not that hard to build a nice clean perfectly performing
> bike
> > that should last several generations with proper use and care. That
should
> > be the minimum requirement if one is selling their work. At that level,
> only
> > the paint and graphics really distinguishes one builder from another
from
> a
> > practical standpoint. Since some people may have forgotten, it's the
> > distinctive "extra" care in construction, style, and passion that has
> > established American framebuilders as among the worlds finest.
Personally,
> > when I hear someone say that refined work is useless or a waste of time
I
> > think first it's a case of "sour grapes" and secondly that perhaps they
> > haven't spent enough time around really exceptional work to truely
> > appreciate the dedication and effort it takes to produce small
percentages
> > of extra excellence and individuality at the expense of tremendous
amounts
> > of time. I see so many "ordinary" bikes that I really appreciate the
> > accomplishments of Richard Moon for example, who hand made a set of lugs
> out
> > of stainless steel tubing, created an original and unique lug pattern
for
> > them, hand polished them, and exicuted a piece of work that makes your
> hair
> > stand on end. Trust me when I say that Richard gave MORE consideration
to
> > EVERY aspect of that frame from design, materials, and skills standpoint
> > than most would put into 10 frames. The builder who is MUCH more likely
> to
> > compromise is the one who is looking to get the job done with the
minimum
> > effort and as quickly as possible. I dare you to ask Peter Johnson what
> > compromises he made on the frame he just finished after his many late
> nights
> > and long hours making a SUPER SIMPLE lug pattern look refined and
unique.
> I
> > would duck if you consider asking Peter that question. Many confuse
fancy
> > with craftsmanship. That is quite NOT the case. It's just as difficult
to
> > make a simple looking masterpiece as a complicated looking one. Seeing
the
> > naked frame that Peter just built should dispell that rumor for all
time.
> At
> > that point an exceptional paint job is a neccessity for the preservation
> of
> > the effort as opposed to serving as a way to make a basic frame look
> > exceptional. To those who care about these things, only the real deal
will
> > do. Just ask Guy Apple.
> >
> > Regarding living in the past and limiting ones' palate, I don't quite
get
> > it. My policy is to not make two frames exactly alike. What that
requires
> is
> > a wide selection of lugs and various creative ways to use them. Some
> things
> > about the past are still worth living. The trick is to know what to keep
> and
> > what to change or improve upon. Copying the design and geometry of
another
> > frame brand is a fine way to start framebuilding; but unless one has the
> > courage to ride LOTS of bikes built by LOTS of builders and has a large
> > collection of bikes/experiences to draw upon you will be missing a lot
as
> a
> > framebuilder. I see those who have never learned for themselves what
all
> of
> > the possibilities are. There is more than one geometry that works, bikes
> are
> > built to serve the needs of the rider and the occassion, and the more
> bikes
> > one has ridden the more one learns about them. Riding fixed gear on the
> > road, track racing, tandem riding, and even trike riding all teach the
> > openminded framebuilder valuable lessons. It's quite clear that one can
> love
> > and enjoy many different bikes, all of which may be quite different,
> > wheather production or custom made. I hear all the time about people who
> > totally LOVE a particular bike and it's something like a Nishiki Pro or
> > something. I used to not understand that. But the fact is that many
> > wonderful riding bikes are made from what some would consider gaspipe
> tubing
> > and exhibit no workmanship whatsoever. It doesn't actually require a
> "master
> > framebuilder" to make a good bike. Hundreds of thousands of Italian
> frames
> > taking less than two man hours to build thrill many of us almost every
> day,
> > most of which will last at least a lifetime. So it's really hard to put
> your
> > finger on exactly why we consider one frame "better" than another. The
> point
> > of diminishing returns comes up quite quickly in the framebuilding
> process;
> > but those who like to put in the extra effort to make something
> distinctive
> > for a special customer who appreciates their style and dedication to
> > craftsmanship should be given the respect they deserve. Calling artiscic
> > frames sour grapes tends to suggest that there is something else other
> than
> > appreciation for our interests going on. Just my observation.
> >
> > I think if you got to know some of these people better, Steven, your
> > opinions might change. Even if it isn't you thing, it shouldn't be to
hard
> > to learn to appreciate the accomplishments of the dedicated few. I'm not
> > interested in starting a ruckus over this issue; I'm only extending my
> hand.
> > If you feel the need to jump all over my s*** then be my guest, but I
will
> > not engage in a pissing match or a name calling session. I respect your
> > opinion and appreciate the times when you supply helpful information to
> > benifit all of us. At this point I will only entertain gestures that
will
> > foster an understanding between us, or am perfectly happy to agree to
> > disagree, if that is your choice.
> >
> > Brian Baylis
> > La Mesa, CA
> > A true keeper of the flame should be able to bask in the glow of another
> > mans' tourch.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: stevens <stevens@veloworks.com>
> > To: brian baylis <rocklube@adnc.com>; Wayne Davidson
> > <wayne.collect@xtra.co.nz>; <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 9:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: [CR]Masi/Peter Rich Story
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ya know ... there's a whole lot more to building a frame than
> > > just the three lugs and bottom bracket ...
> > >
> > > What defines a craftsman is the whole product that's produced
> > > not just how pretty his filework is ... the lugs are just
> > > a small part of the whole.
> > >
> > > Frame design counts. Brazing skill counts. Materials used
> > > counts.
> > >
> > > Limiting your palette to Fisher or Dubois or Nervex limits good
> > > chunks of the rest of your palette as well, especially your tubing
> > > choice.
> > >
> > > I don't want a new frame built with 531 with a 1" top tube ...
> > > I want my new frames built with Dedacciai Zero or True Temper
> > > OX Platinum or Columbus Thermachrom ... very light & very strong,
> > > and hey ... still luggable under a skilled torch.
> > >
> > > Yes, thank God that Kirk P. is out there doing his thing with
> > > lugs that are compatible with modern materials AND have enough
> > > meat to them that the craftsman can be as crazily artistic as
> > > they want to be.
> > >
> > > But on the other hand, thank God that Richard Sachs is out there
> > > with his very simple, delicate, understated lugs as well ...
> > >
> > > Keep this in mind, living in the past also limits the craftsman.
> > >
> > >
> > > Steven L. Sheffield
> > > stevens at veloworks dot com
> > > veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
> > > bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
> > > ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch
> > > aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
> > > double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
> > >
> > > ---------- Original Message -----------
> > > From: brian baylis <rocklube@adnc.com>
> > > To: Wayne Davidson <wayne.collect@xtra.co.nz>,
> > classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > > Sent: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:30:03 -0700
> > > Subject: Re: [CR]Masi/Peter Rich Story
> > >
> > > > Wayne,
> > > >
> > > > That's true, by the 80's Colnagos were being produced at an alarming
> > > > rate. Ernesto is the KING of streamlineing framebuilding for profit.
> > > > Their reputation fell in terms of quality on account of that. As
> > > > with Masis, my fondness for them ends about 1975. Pre '75 frames
> > > > still show lots of character and earlier is better with all of them.
> > > > Personally, I feel that the advent of investment cast lugs is the
> > > > beginning of the end of true craftsmanship on frames, in most cases.
> > > > IC lugs can be reworked, but the whole point of them is to eliminate
> > > > the work. Thank God Kirk Pacenti was thinking in terms of still
> > > > allowing some room for style and creativity. I suspect his lugs may
> > > > be the first and only IC lugs made that way.
> > > >
> > > > Brian Baylis
> > > > La Mesa, CA
> > > >
> > > > Brian Baylis
> > > > La Mesa, CA
> > > >
> > > > Wayne Davidson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all, well this was a good read as per usual with Brian. I would
> > pass
> > > > > on the Colnago's, in the 80's it seemed that quite a lot of riders
> had
> > > > > them here, bit like Ford Cortina's or HQ Holdens, everybody owned
> one,
> > it
> > > > > was nice to see something different like an Alan, Team Raleigh in
> Red,
> > > > > nowadays they are all Avanti's or Giant's they all look the same,
> just
> > > > > like Japanese cars, all look the same, thank goodness for vintage
> > rides,
> > > > > so endith the sermon......regards wayne davidson Invers NZ "its
> > midnight
> > > > > and I'm working in the morning"
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > ------- End of Original Message -------