Tom,
I don't see the issue as function vs. art. This is something I have been trying to get certain people to recognize for over 20 years. Certain types of people insist upon creating a wall between a bicycle as a functional object and an object of beauty. They are NOT mutually exclusive. I understand if one want's to relate to a bike as ONLY a tool. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is when they say that if it happens to be beautiful then it must not be as "good" as a tool. That is pure baloney. I fully understand the frustration now of beautiful women that are intellegent and have large breasts. Some people just can't pay attention to the point you're trying to make just because you make refined or beautiful frames. HEY GUYS, MY EYES ARE UP HERE! Every time we discuss this topic I say that the first and formost job of the framebuilder is to design and build a bike that fits the rider, the conditions of use, and the special needs of the owner. And yet EVERY time someone insists if it is beautiful it isn't really a tool and can't possibly be as good in some way. HEY GUYS, I have a BRAIN too; never mind my chest and listen to what I'm saying.
About frame design and materials there always seems to be debate and disagreement. Some may feel that I am anti ANYTHING that is modern. That is NOT the case at all. I have built many frames with IC lugs and oversized tubing. Many seem to be convinced that modern tubing is automatically better because it is harder and stronger and that it is oversized. What I can tell you as a framebuilder for over 30 years who has experimented with a lot of different steel tubes, is that excellent frames can be built for almost any purpose out of either material and type of lugs. One only has to know the particulars of the various materials available. I perfer older Reynolds 531 tubes and older Columbus sets for some projects. As I recall all the big boys (Eddy, Fausto, etc., etc.) did fine on frames built of these materials that were far less carefully built than the majority of frames built by experienced small timers in the US. The material has proven it's longevity, and a skilled and experienced framebuilder knows how to design a frame around these materials. Some frames should only be made from OS tubing; some frames should only be built from standard type tubing. Neither one is better, honestly. They are different and experience dictates what to use when. To be perfectly honest the thing I am most anxious to do right now is finish the frame with my modified Pacenti lugs and an OS tubeset. I will explain how these materials can be used in the same way to create a beautiful AND functional frame for a specific purpose.
A few words on frame design. There are a large number of different ways that frames are designed. In this day and age there aren't very many framebuilders who actually have extensive first hand knowledge of designing frames to order without the help of some program or some guidelines from someone who has designed the frames before them. When I was a fledgling, one thing we used to do when learning to design frames was to copy a frame you already know works. That is a simple thing to do. Measure a frame and copy it. If you continue to do this on several frames and ride the crap out of them to really get to know the bike and its traits, you will begin to get a feel of how various tubings, dimensions, construction methods and whatnot effect the outcome. It is also very neccessary in my opinion to ride lots of bikes from other makers to learn more. The bike that had the greatest influence on me as a young rider and later as a beginning framebuilder was my Eisentraut "A" frame. It defied it's dimnesions that weren't racy at all by having a wonderful, smooth, and lively ride. Recently I was pleasently surprised by a Keith Lippy frame I bought for $100. It is a little large for my taste (53cm c-t) and is touring in design, but again it rides fantastic and like JOE BELL mentioned about the one he has for sale, the lugwork is superlative and the seat stay caps are extrememly well done. Probably the best $100 I ever spent. Unless you are strictly racing, or just can't live without the latest junk, one is seriously missing out on what bikes are all about if you don't own and ride at least a few genuine classics. That would also include a modern masterpiece made in the traditional fashion. Modern components on a vintage style frame will give you every bit as much performance and pleasure as any other modern approach to frames. Each is different. I'm quite positive none of them is actually BETTER. Most of it is opinion according to your emotions, brand loyality, setimental attachments, and need (or lack of it) to keep up with the joneses and keep the credit card maxed out.
There are, like I said, several design philosophies out there. I will refrain from discussing this mainly on account of the sensitive nature of this topic. Not all framebuilders agree on what dimensions are the important ones and which ones are "resulting" measurements. I know what I believe and why I believe it. Others may have different priorities and therefore approach design from a different angle. I go by my experience that has been gained directly from owning over 75 bikes in my day and building over 30 of them for myself to ride and learn from in various ways. In my opinion there is no substitute for a wide variety of riding and building experiences. Enough said. Books and programs are fine if you do not have a base of knowledge of your own to draw upon.
Construction methods are probably the thing that we would all like to believe makes the magical differences in one frame to the next. I like to believe this too. I generally refrain from discussing exact construction methods because it is again, amongst some framebuilders, a sensitive subject. Needless to say, I have my opinions as to what is right and what is wrong on pretty much every aspect of constructing a frame. The process itself is basically simple and requires more common sense that anything else. Some methods I see in use seem totally backwards to me while other methods are geared towards production. I suspect that ultimately most anyone who works slowly and carefully will end up with an excellent structural piece. It's actually rather difficult to muck up such a simple project once one has the basic skills. I feel consistant good results should be the main goal during construction. The frame can be left unrefined at that point and serve it's mechanical purpose perfectly well. Beyond that point the framebuilder is just making an artistic statement. Just like a custom tailored handmade suit, it isn't neccessary to have the highest quality object to get the job done. As long as there is enough material to cover your bare behind and the suit fits, it will work as a suit. Finer material, smarter styling, custom fitting only enhance the experience if the customer prefers to have some of the finer things in life. It isn't for everyone.
And yet, as simple and basic as framebuilding is, there should always be the things that show that the craftsman is growing and expanding his/her knowledge of the subject. The best way is to challange oneself. Open your mind to new things at least long enough to get a feel for how suitable it may be for you. Just because something is new or trendy does not mean one has to follow along. Nor does it mean it is automatically bad. Make wise choices based on what suits you. I generally stick to that which comes natural to me and things that please my eye and sense of balance. Others may make choices for other reasons.
I hope this little speach helps everyone to understand the positions a bit more clearly. I have said it many times that the "art" of framebuilding is secondary to the practical aspects of building and riding the bike. And yet every time it comes up everyone is stareing at the pretty paint job or something. and just doesn't realize how serious I take my construction methods and choice of materials. I would be willing to bet that no one takes as long or as much care in frame construction as I do. My sequence is very long, involves a lot of prefitting and rechecking fit and angles in order to produce the exact frame dimensions I specify in addition to a stress free frame that is precisely aligned. I work from a full scale drawing that I use to tell me subtle things that other methods cannot easily, if at all, provide. It is suitable to building completely custom frames regardless of fittings used (or not, as in fillet brazed frames), tube diameters, or angles. If there is any better way to do the job I do, I haven't seen it.
So that's it. There is no conflict here. We may not neccessarily agree as to which way is best, but there is no way that the basics, and then some, of frame design and construction are being overlooked. It is the foundation upon which the refinements of the craft are overlaid. My experience as a rider is easily as extensive as anyone else and within my specialitys, I have learned and expreimented far more than most. Living in the past is irrelevent here. I will never be convinced that beauty precludes function. It's simply not true. If anything, beauty enhances the function. Don't ask me to explain why; it won't happen.
I don't have time now to lay out the details of how art is appled to framebuilding at the moment. I will however assure everyone that I will explain much of what I said at Velo Rendezvous about lugwork, etc. Then any doubters will see that not only am I NOT against investment cast lugs or "modern" steel tubes, but I will detail how they can be used to enhance the look of the frame. Yes, YOU CAN have your cake and eat it too! But it still involves a lot of work if you intend to get the final refined handmade look. I will explain the primary purpose of IC lugs as it relates to the framebuilding industry.
Brian Baylis La Mesa, CA Mike Tatum, you could have picked my brain at VR. There's just not that much there; it wouldn't have taken long! ;-)
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> Well, there's some merit on both sides. I think we're missing Steven's
main point, which is that first and foremost the bike is a tool, and better
function makes a better tool. Steve points out that modern steels should
permit building a lighter, stiffer but just as comfortable and durable a
frame, but to do so requires using bigger tubes, modern lugs and giving up
Nervex and 531. However, I don't think Steve is saying old frames are bad
or useless, but on an empirical level, in his eyes, aren't quite as "good".
So if one want's the ultimate frame, one must first use the best materials
that have the highest level of function.
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> Focusing in a different direction, Brian is pointing out that there is art
and merit in the subtle refinements in a Johnson, Moon or (I will add) a
Baylis frame, that, beyond the regulation details of geometry, correct
materials, mitering and brass penetration, take any frame to another level.
Education is needed for the consumer to appreciate, for example, how the
builder chose to file the seat stay caps. I know I am woefully ignorant of
the details. I have an MKM frame at the painters now, and it's my first
fastback frame. I sat there, looking at the stays melting into the seat lug
and tube, and sat there wondering "how did they do it?"
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> Which guy is right, and which guy is wrong? They're both "right" in
setting their criteria of what makes a great bike. However, I might point
out that there are some basic requirements for bikes before we apply either
standard. First, the frame has to have functional geometry, use proper
materials and be assembled competently. We've probably all had frames that
failed one or the other test, and the resulting bike just isn't worth your
time. As a famous outdoor writer wrote, "only accurate rifles are
interesting", dismissing a lovely creation of walnut, wood carving and steel
engraving that couldn't hit the side of a barn. I had a pretty Trek 720,
made shortly after the Issacs cast lugs came into use. But it was a 25.5
frame using 531c tubing, 18 inch stays and a 42.5 inch wheel base. The
frame was comfortable, but so whippy you couldn't stand up to climb.
Although lovely to look at, and, I presume, assembled competently, it wasn't
"interesting".
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> Steven (I make bold to speak for him) is calling on us to push lugged
steel construction to better things, to demand better functioning bike that
will help ensure the continuation of a craft we all admire by making steel
lugged bikes "state of the art". In fact, Steve points out you can have the
latest and greatest tubing with Pacenti or Sachs lugs, and be true to the
spirit of the list. This is more important than pretty lugs by themselves
for Steve. Brian is focused on admiring and pointing out the subtle details
in master built frames, regardless of age, sharing his deep and subtle
knowledge and helping us appreciate fine workmanship.
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> I sit here with fingers bleeding from cable stab wounds to all ten thumbs,
trying to do a simple center pull brake set up, and enjoy both view points.
Keep on writing.
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> Tom Adams, Shrewsbury NJ
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