Walt,
I realized after I had sent my last E-Mail that I had forgotten the term "rare" - that is an absolute "classic" E-Bay misnomer!!! And of course, fon't forget "bought by my father in ...." or "original owner now going into a nursing home" ;^)
Cheers,
Paul.
Paul Williams,
Ottawa, ON, Canada
elsewhere (long)
I am shocked that you would find offense in the use of the terms classic and vintage...on such RARE terms on ebay. It is RARE to find those words attached to some of those RARE bikes that aren't vintage or classic. Sometimes you find a ONE OF A KIND bike on ebay that is classic and RARE...the combination of terms just seems to magnify it's importance.
It is getting so common to read these auctions anymore and just sit and shake my head and laugh. People are amazing...especially when they list what they originally paid for some items....unbelievable that they actually think putting that will make others believe it!?! I also get tired of the use of Patina. It was touched on previously this week and I agree...Patina to me is simply that off color charm that can be noted on chrome and metal...NOT RUST. Rust is rust...say it like it is...there is some surface rust noted...say it...don't paint a pretty picture around it.
On the list we joke about Patina so I can understand humor here...but on ebay with millions of users and tons of un-knowing people...we know rust when we see rust.
Walt
-----Original Message----- From: Paul Williams <castell5@sympatico.ca> Sent: Nov 11, 2003 10:19 AM To: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]Use of the terms "vintage" and "classic" on E-Bay and elsewhere (long)
Hi folks,
I have recently been struck by the constant over use or perhaps improper use of the terms "vintage" and "classic" on E-Bay and in other sales. I remember a book on "veteran," "vintage," and "classic" cars my father had when I was a kid. This had a discussion of these definitions and a clear idea of what they meant. Vintage originally, of course, coming from the world of the wine connoisseur.
I don't want to enter into another protracted discussion here about the concepts of value and "keepers of the flame" etc., however, I was just struck by the fact that application of these terms is often being used to justify charging higher prices, assigning a greater sense of value to something, and is perhaps misleading. Am I wrong? Without getting too anal about this, is there a clear idea within bicycle collecting what is considered "vintage" and what is considered "classic"? (I know that this is often in the eye of the beholder so to speak!)
Paul Williams, Ottawa "where it is beginning to snow this morning" ON, Canada
P.S. In a search for a clear idea of how car collectors are thinking, I found two examples (of course this is often country dependant):
http://www.motorsm.com/
"What makes a car a "classic"? This is a difficult question that no two car
enthusiast will agree on. Therefore we apologize at the outset for omissions
of cars that you consider to be a "classic". What follows is a subjective
selection based on combination of :
a.. design innovation
b.. enduring appeal
c.. performance
d.. aesthetics
e.. age (at least 20 years old).
f.. Timeframe:
a.. 1900-1908 Veteran Cars
b.. 1909-1930 Vintage Cars
c.. 1931- Classic Car"
http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/
"Probably the most discussed question raised by people with a new found interest in older cars, is 'What is a Classic Car?'. Finding an answer to this question ranks with establishing the meaning of life (well almost), as there can be no other debate likely to raise the hackles of one group of enthusiasts or another. ... Older cars can be grouped more or less by the year they were made, such as with vintage and veteran cars for instance, vintage cars (as defined by the Vintage Sports Car Club I think) are anything built pre-1930. A car built between 1930 and WW2 is generally classed as being a Post Vintage Thoroughbred, quite a grand moniker for many cars that fall into this group, which at the time were less than grand. After this time things get significantly less clear, with the term 'Classic Car' being applied by various quarters to any car from the 1940s right through in some cases to the 1980s even. ... At the end of the day, the term 'classic car' is now accepted as applying to any car over say 15 years of age that has some fan base to draw upon, with one or two exceptions for truly interesting more recent automobiles. "
_______________________________________________
Walter Skrzypek
Falls Creek, Pa