I can back up what Dennis is saying after having taken several 30s frames down to bare.The paint was thicker back then and covered a lot of sin.And the lugs were heaver than the fancy ones you see today.So they heavy filed them to lighten them.But as Dennis said different times--so todays or even say 60s-80s bikes should be equal in good workmanship and show lugs with no file marks. sam lingo,pleasanton tx
> Brazing goobers not OK, but I can't quite figure why
> it is that sensible
> turns to dogmatic when it comes to file marks. You
> are talking about a
> different era of bicycle making when those Masis had
> the remnants of file
> work on them. People had a different mind about
> what they were doing then,
> and the expectations of the customers were different
> as well. Not that I
> would suggest it, but thinking otherwise suggests a
> lack of understanding of
> bicycle history, and aesthetics evolution.
> American's as craftsmen/artists
> tend to be very contemplative about their work, just
> watch the video made by
> Alan Bernstein, which shows two contemporary frame
> builders discussing what
> they do. They live and work during a time where
> they can generally afford
> to be so analytical, along with their education and
> cultural upbringing that
> stimulates such an approach. I don't think it is a
> low blow to call these
> people, doing what presumably you regard as a more
> respected type of frame
> building, as a breakaway from the former traditions,
> at least in some
> respects. It is very "American". European,
> Japanese, most third world
> craftsman/artisans, picked up their tools at a young
> age, often were
> instructed to do the tasks a certain way, maybe told
> not to sweat the file
> marks, and that's the way it was done, no dilemma
> and end of enquiry. I
> don't understand your call on poor workmanship here.
> Some guy often will
> eventually come along with a new vision, sometimes
> make what was a
> compilation of variety piece work into a skillfil
> one person operation, make
> things neater, prettier, it has happened in most
> manual trades where
> aesthetics can also play a big part. Certainly in
> woodwork, specifically
> 19th and early 20th century chair production this
> was the case, where burlap
> sacks were hung over the windows to discourage "idle
> gazing" that would
> detract from the valuable time, and leaving tool
> marks hardly stuck in
> anyone's craw. Then along came a guy named Jack.
> That you could afford to
> be discriminatory about file marks in your's and the
> assistant's work, it is
> noteworthy, but not everyone has had such luxury.
> Even if they had the
> time, the fact that the inclination wasn't there, is
> quite possibly more a
> reflection of the era, than of a desire to take a
> vacation from good
> workmanship. People see things differently when
> times change, have more
> information to go on, that's a very big part of it.
> Why go upside someone's
> head about it?
>
> Dennis Young
> Hotaka, Japan
>
>
> > Joe Starck posted-
> > I only value a hand-worked frame if it's finished
> > well. Gacky contours, file marks and brazing
> goobers
> > are like a crooked wood object that wasn't sanded
> and
> > shows glue comin' outta the seams. Oooh,
> hand-made.
> > Nice. And "silliness of file marks" comes from the
> > many misguided on this list who actually equate
> file
> > marks with "charm." File marks are marks of
> laziness
> > and a measure of the maker's craftsmanship
> integrity.
>
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