[CR]wasKOF Riv lugs: Now :don't discuss this again, please!

(Example: Component Manufacturers:Avocet)

From: <"brianbaylis@juno.com">
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 08:15:22 GMT
To: josephbstarck@yahoo.com
cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: [CR]wasKOF Riv lugs: Now :don't discuss this again, please!

Hey Joe,

I really got a kick out of all the reactions regarding my statement abou t the Riv lug designs. Sorry I didn't get back in it as I intended, to s ort things out and clear the air a bit. I just get too busy to play. Per haps "hedious" is a tad strong. I'm saying only for my personal taste; I didn't intend for everyone else to care what I think of them. Why the h eck should they? If one likes them, fine. In case no one noticed, the lu gs aren't the bike. If anyone is buying ANY bike JUST because they like the lugwork, they are missing the point of the bicycle completely. So wh o cares what I think of Riv lug designs. To me they are generally repuls ive, or maybe only mildly revolting; what's the difference. The thing th at I find most amuzing is that many people will read a statement like I made and take it really personal. Trust me, I love all of you guys and I would never pass judgment upon someone based on wheather they had a Riv or not or liked the lugs or whatever. Where is YOUR self confidence? So why do some people get so excited. I didn't call anyone an A-hole, I ju st don't like Riv lug designs. Is that alright?

BUT, regarding you calling me out. Why wait for the next framebuilders s how? I can explain my OPINION, which is not an obligation to anyone to a gree, it's simply a statement of my feelings on the subject. No major di scussion is required. Everyone else gave their opinion one way or the ot her in the previous discussion. Herein is only the explaination that Joe demands.

It's a simple matter of curves and perportions, placement and shape of c utouts, and of course the extended head tube issue. I know what looks ri ght to me. I know what works properly. I know which technichal aspects a re important. I don't see it all come together on too many bikes; that's why I make mine the way I do, because it's what I like and fits my deff inition of nice lugwork. I don't go for fancy unless that is what the cu stomer is seeking. Lug designs are just lug designs and are a very small part of what the bike is in total. Some bikes are greater than a sum of their parts. Apparently Grant and I have different taste. Holy Crap; im agine that!

So I'n not sure what your complaint is about JB's Holland with the lugs I did for that one. Has it ever occured to you that you haven't even see n probably %95 of the frames I've built in the last 30 years. No two are alike, and you can believe me when I say that there are a number of sur prizes. Not that lugs are the bike or anything, but I have made probably a wider variety of lugs (all of which look like lugs BTW, nothing to si mulate abstract or odd un-bicyclelike shapes) and other frame details, t han any other builder alive or dead. I even have a few replicas of other famous makes, which is another different type of challange. I have alwa ys strived to do my best work and not rely on modern materials, preferin g to work with the fittings that exude character from the hand of the bu ilder and require the traditional type of hand filing and hand cutouts t hat few framebuilders from any era have the patience for. Furthermore I believe I'm one of the few who are still thinking and designing interest ing features for the modern bicycle, much like Bruce Gordon is doing, wh ile still being a one person shop. And I'm not saying designing new ways to add decoration to frames in the form of stainless steel, gold, or an y other mainly decorative non-functional tidbits, for crying out loud. T hat's a really tough job in this modern era of mega hype and huge intern et presence and fancy machine capabilities run by computers. Anyone can spew crap these days; not too many are really on the cutting edge of the "good old days".

So what is your complaint? My work isn't creative enough? Too sloppy for your taste maybe. Hideous paint colors? My lug designs boreing and they stink? You weren't at the last show in San Jose, Joe; so exactly what i s it that I need to be prepared for? Did you look around? For one thing, unless you were there and you know exactly how everything went down, yo u cannot even get a feel for what was there and what wasn't (speaking in terms of framebuilding and designing talent, craftsmanship, and persona lities) by the records of the event. I was there. I know what I saw. I k now what I'm looking at when I see it. Once I have time to focus on fram ebuilding (comming up VERY soon) and time to play around a bit with maki ng components and whatnot, perhaps I will be able to please you.

Oh BTW, show me the example of the lugs you designed and the bike you bu ilt with them so I can see what the proper thing looks like. Certainly y ou wouldn't take a shot at me unless you had something to defend yoursel f with, right? As far as I know we're still friends and pretty much alwa ys have been; but if you want to go a few rounds get ready. I think mayb e you still have a little Riv blood in your veins; perhaps you took my s tatement personal. If you want to get rid of the rest of the Riv blood s tart a fight; I'll make sure you bleed plenty enough to get rid of it. W e're still friends though.

Brian Baylis La Mesa, CA In case no one has noticed, I don't have much time for this sort of monk ey business lately.