Re: [CR]Help dating a BSA track frameset (now Ellis Champion)

(Example: Racing)

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 23:41:53 +0100
Subject: Re: [CR]Help dating a BSA track frameset (now Ellis Champion)
From: "Hilary Stone" <hilary.stone@blueyonder.co.uk>
To: Tam Pham <terminaut@gmail.com>, <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
In-Reply-To: <b27bc5c00607061517j1785bc99g7f862c1a5c1a4462@mail.gmail.com>
cc: NIGEL LAND <ndland@btinternet.com>

An Ellis Champion will normally have a frame number on the seat lug - but number 2101 would date it as being in the 1910-20 period which it certainly isn't - Ellis Champion were founded in 1897. And over the years I have had several Ellis Champions but this frame does not strike me as one - they have a style which is distinctive but not easily describeable. Other English makers to use numbers on the seat lug are F W Evans but the number is also too low for the date of this frame and Macleans - I do not know much about Macleans numbers pre-WWII but it does not have any characteristics of these frames either which were generally quite distinctive too... Bates used head lugs in this style but the number is not the correct type or in the correct place... This frame may date from just post-WWII as the seatstay top eyes and the chainstay indentations lokk a little more modern than the fork crown would otherwise suggest.

Hilary Stone, Bristol, England


> From: "Tam Pham" <terminaut@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 15:17:30 -0700
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Cc: NIGEL LAND <ndland@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Help dating a BSA track frameset (now Ellis Champion)
>
> Hi all,
>
> A very helpful non-listmember has identified the frameset as a 1930's Ellis
> Champion. I havent' heard of the brand before. Does anyone have links to
> photos of an Ellis Champion on the web by any chance?
>
> Tam Pham
> Huntington Beach, CA
>
>
> On 7/6/06, NIGEL LAND <ndland@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Tam, that is a seriously nice frame. Can't see from the pics but I guess
>> neither fork crown nor rear bridge are drilled? Also no mudguard eyes so
>> pure track rather than road/path. The clip type headset was still in use
>> into the early 50s, but is a good indicator of prewar. I have a 1936 BSA
>> catalogue and lugs are sort of similar to the Golden Vase road bike. There
>> is no track frame listed and the two part head lugs are different to
>> anything else in the catalogue. I am no expert on BSA, nor on prewar track
>> irons and hope someone out there is. However, BSA made a lot of fittings
>> and
>> their bottom brackets were sold by Brown Bros for use by frame builders.
>> So
>> there is a good chance it is not a BSA and that opens a huge can of
>> worms..Norris???
>> Good find,
>>
>> Nigel Land
>> Barton on Humber
>> UK
>>
>>
>> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:23:24 -0700
>> From: "Tam Pham" <terminaut@gmail.com>
>> To: "classicrendezvous@bikelist.org" <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>> Subject: [CR]Help dating a BSA track frameset
>> Message-ID: <b27bc5c00607051423v63d8066bx116dbdc5ecf3041c@mail.gmail.com>
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>> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:23:24 -0700
>> From: "Tam Pham" <terminaut@gmail.com>
>> To: "classicrendezvous@bikelist.org" <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>> Subject: [CR]Help dating a BSA track frameset
>> Message-ID: <b27bc5c00607051423v63d8066bx116dbdc5ecf3041c@mail.gmail.com>
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>>
>> I seem to have a thing for certain British brands. With cars it was
>> Triumph
>> and now with bikes it's BSA. Anyways, I recently picked up another old BSA
>> frameset that seems to be very well constructed (particularly with regards
>> to the thinned lugs) and could use some help in dating it. Unfortunately,
>> a
>> prior owner refinished the frameset with a poor rattle-can paintjob and
>> the
>> original markings are no longer known.
>>
>> The serial number stamped on the seat tube looks like it's 2101, and some
>> photos can be seen here:
>>
>> http://www.chainedrevolution.com/images/bikes/bsa/details.htm
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any comments offered,
>> Tam Pham
>> Huntington Beach, CA