to all, a few days ago i added my analysis of the possible reasons for the card suits as lug cutouts and i referred to italians as "guineas" and our friends from the land of the rising sun as "japs" this was an innocent attempt at humour on my part. in our culture the origins and usage of both those terms are so far in the past as to be an anachronism(in my mind) and in my twisted sense of humor almost a "term of endearment" however it was pointed out to me that to someone from another culture,unfamiliar with our humour and in the vehicle of an e-mail from a stranger ,could easily misconstrue my words ,and find them hurtful or demeaning.that was far from my intention,this is a great resource we have and a great international community of cyclists and afficionados of vintage steel bikes and i would not be one to create unease among any of its members.so i sincerely apologize if i did hurt anyone's feelings as it is just as hurtful if by thoughtlessness as by intention. and to get back on topic its not "all in the cards"for cutouts. my guercioti lugs anf fork reinforcement has stars and the downtube has one small cinelli style circle cutout.my nishiki pro comp II from the late70's has a stylized crown cutout inthe lugs.i guess we can assume that cutoutsin the lugs are just the makers way of demonstrating the extra care that goes into a hand built frame.and i will remember it is always best to consider the possible effects of one's words before posting them to the list kevin ruberg howell nj usa