Hey Ken:
I can't help but wonder about a couple of things you wrote here:
<< Mine (1980, pre-TSD) also has a high BB, the drop is about 6.4 cm. Compares
to about a cm more for my Trek and others. I think this contributes to the
Woodrup's sense of stability. >>
"In Theory" the lower the BB, the more stable and of course the opposite for
higher BBs.
In fact, if I remember correctly, that is one of Richard Sach's unique
characteristics in his frames... He has used quite a bit lower bb height
and while you may not be able to pedal through the curves quite as much,
that is a well considered trade-off that results in a more secure control
(stability)while cornering.
I think that much of the sought after stability and steering accuracy is part
of accurate frame alignment and dishined wheels... So many frames, of all quality
levels, are not straight.. Just a 1/2 CM in misalignment can make a huge
difference and we tend to blame other factors (frame angles, dimensions)
when in fact, if the frame were carefully aligned, would make the bikes
ride ever so much better....
<< My theory is that both of my frames are small frames, and subject to
compromises inherent in minimizing toe overlap and gettign adequate front
tire to downtube clearance, without extremely long top tubes. One design
feature to address this is to raise the BB, and another is to lay back the
head tube to perhaps 72 degrees. >>
In my (limited) experience, the reason many builders/manufacturers make
a higher BB in smaller frame is to solve the problem/save a lot of work
in joinery at the compacted head tube /head lugs area...
By raising the BB, that allows raising the upper head lug, allowing quick and unmodified use of the stock lugs. I.e., no cutting or fitting, etc. Another solution to this was a one-piece head lug that allowed the top tube & down tube to intersect...
On road bikes of any size, I don't think the clearance of the down tube vs tire is much concern...
'Course I could be wrong. It is fun the theorize about all this mysterious stuff!
Happy New Year!
Dale
Dale Brown Greensboro, NC USA
-----Original Message----- From: freesound@comcast.net To: jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net; hydelake@verizon.net; Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 7:43 PM Subject: RE: [CR] WOODRUP frames
Jerry,
Mine (1980, pre-TSD) also has a high BB, the drop is about 6.4 cm. Compares to about a cm more for my Trek and others. I think this contributes to the Woodrup's sense of stability. The SOH on mine is 77.6 cm, seat tube is 53.5 c-t, 52 cm c-c.
My '84 or so Mondonico (sure looks on-topic, but I can't be sure!) has a BB drop of 7.2, 52 cm c-c seat tube, and 78.3 cm SOH. Both bikes seem to have high BBs, so I don't think national style is necessarily being illustrated here. My theory is that both of my frames are small frames, and subject to compromises inherent in minimizing toe overlap and gettign adequate front tire to downtube clearance, without extremely long top tubes. One design feature to address this is to raise the BB, and another is to lay back the head tube to perhaps 72 degrees. My Woodrup and Mondonico respectively have head tube angles of 72.0 degrees and 72.4 degrees (I have less confidence in this latter number).
Both bikes are sort of a French fit for me.
Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Jerome & Elizabeth Moos Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 11:56 AM To: Barb & Dan Artley; Classic Rendezvous Subject: RE: [CR] WOODRUP frames
I have an early/mid 80's Woodrup. Nice bike, but does have a very high bottom bracket. Haven't measured the actual BB height, but the standover height is what I'd expect on a bike with a seat tube about 2 cm longer. No one else has mentioned this, but were high BB's typical of Woodrup? On the other hand I also have a 52 cm ctc 1988 Mercian KOM with a standover height about the same as a 55 cm French of Italian frame, so maybe the high BB's were a British thing in the 80's.
Regards,
Jerry Moos Big Spring, TX
Barb & Dan Artley <hydelake@verizon.net> wrote: I can't say how pleased I am hearing so much of Woodrup Cycles. A Woodrup was my first really nice race bike replacing what I considered more of a tourer, my PX-10 (Sorry Peter K.). It was unfortunately crashed, badly repaired and sold, but recently repurchased. I'm hoping that someday it will get the restoration it deserves for the fond memories of my only race season back in 1973. Thanks to all who've provided this information. Does anyone know if they are still building keepers of the flame in lugged steel? ... More?
Dan Artley in Parkton, Maryland
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The subject of Woodrup frames reminds me of my own experiences visiting their framebuilding shop when I was learning to build at Ellis Briggs. I wanted to learn how to do a fluted seat stay top like what was on my Masi and Jack Briggs rang up Woodrup to see if one of them would be willing to show me how. What I vaguely remember Jack Briggs telling me was that somehow Jack's father helped Woodrup get started. The date around 1953 or 4 sticks in my mind from our conversation about it. Leeds is about 15 miles to the east from the much smaller town of Shipley where Ellis Briggs is located. The good size city of Bradford is about 3 miles to the south. In other words, these places are one big megalopolis. 15 British miles is not 15 American miles. The roads are not laid out on a square because of the shape of the land and going to Leeds seemed like a big trip. It was lots of stop and go city driving on winding roads in my old Morris Minor. This generosity (to help others when it wasn't to his own advantage) was part of Jack's character too and something I've been deeply grateful for (since he did the same for me).
I was a little shy going in the door and was glad Jack had asked permission for me. One of the sons (I don't remember which one) spent several hours of the afternoon showing me what to do. That day he was the only one there. I had some seat stays with me and he demonstrated how to miter the end and braze another piece of tubing in that place and then file off the excess. I looked around a bit and realized they did things a bit differently than Briggs. I also remember him suggesting to me that there wasn't much need now days (as in 1975) to pin frames together before brazing since hearth brazing was replaced with oxyacetylene brazing. As he explained, a spot isn't likely to break or move. All in all a valuable and pleasant afternoon. As a newbie, I was respectful of his advice and didn't try to argue how we did things a bit differently at Briggs. My impression was that Woodrup was a bit more production oriented - meaning that they concentrated on getting a certain number of frames made in a decent way in a week. It was the primary thing that brought in money for them. The frame shop at Briggs when I was there was a bit more of an extension of the bigger business. There was the regular retail sales on the ground floor with several sales people. There were the regular Raleigh and other bikes and another area had pro stuff. In the back was the repair shop with 2 workers. Upstairs in one room was Bill and Rodney the painters and in another, Andrew mostly made the frames one at a time to a particular person. The result of not having framebuilding be the center of the business was that it allowed a bit more individual attention to be paid to each frame being made. Jack never pressured Andrew to be more productive, he just wanted him to make them right. Jack himself also helped out in there but mostly he and his wife kept an eye on the entire business. When he was in the frame shop, it was primarily to teach me and share his considerable knowledge or finalize instructions about another frame for Andrew to build. Those circumstances really were a benefit to me which I have always deeply appreciated. Another advantage was the ability to wander into the paint room next door and observe all the steps in painting. Bill and Rodney always enjoyed company and Andrew and I also ate our lunch in there.
There are lots more memories of that time but not more time to write about them now. About the other framebuilders in West Yorkshire and the area itself.
Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan USA