I feel your pain , Bruce. You and the others who have spent many late nights for no money making the perfect radius on the perfect lug. In 1997 I came to my senses. The bike shop always seemed like the perfect crime...getting paid for something you love to do and would do, anyhow. But the realities of credit card debt finally got my attention. This is a tough business, and I don't know how to solve your dilemma. When I decided to start a carpet cleaning business in 1997, it was mostly in reaction to years of waiting for parts from UPS that came late, or not at all (backordered!) The dirt was waiting for me, all I had to do was take it out and get paid, compared to running a bike shop and building custom frames...easy. And profitable. So, why did I jump at the chance of assembling the two Columbines in the show I designed for customers? It cost me an Alex Singer and a Hetchins to pay this month bills so I could take off from sucking rugs and play in the golden fields of bicycling again. I haven't had as much fun in years watching folks react to no name Campy Brakes, Huret Jubilee changers, Campy steel cranks w/TA rings and White Industries "Grande Flange" custom hubs. I got to live the life again for a few days, and while I'll probably get a few custom orders from the show for the most part what I'll take away from it is the pleasure of seeing people respond to something I helped create. From having had a retail store I can empathize with Grant's marketing efforts to keep Rivendell alive. The bills go on even when business slows. A lot of people have responded to Grant's approach to fitting ( casual) and while I don't think riding a bike with bars high in the air and that hits you in the crotch when you stand over it is good fit , if it gets people out on the road there's a slim chance they might graduate to a true custom bike someday. Bikes shows are about possibilities and dreams..... the golden fields of youth. Reality is often more stark. But I carry in my mind an image of a doctor friend, normally staid, professional and very subdued, jumping up and down with excitement while I put the finishing touches on his new Pauley and sent him out for his first ride...
Paul Brown Cycle Dynamics Santa Rosa, CA 707 322-7208
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Stronglight Triple (Jerome & Elizabeth Moos) 2. Re: Richie Sachs adds a comment..Re: NAHBS Thoughts 3. Re: FS: 1967 Bottecchia More Info (Tim Fricker) 4. Saxon twin tube on eBay (Phil Sieg) 5. Fotheringham's Roule Britannia -- anyone read it? (Silver, Mordecai) 6. Re: Saxon twin tube on eBay (Michael Butler) 7. Giordana Cottur Photographs (Brett Horton) 8. Re: [Frame] RE: [BOB] NAHBS Thoughts (late and long and opinionated) (Darrell McCulloch) 9. Message For Martin Coplannd (Michael Butler) 10. Re: RE: [BOB] NAHBS Thoughts (late and long and opinionated) 11. apology (Emanuel Lowi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 14:15:34 -0800 (PST) From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos To: john@os2.dhs.org, CR List Subject: Re: [CR]Stronglight Triple Message-ID: <20060308221535.42465.qmail@web82203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <440F5517.8000409@new.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 1
Stronglight did make a couple of 144 BCD models, mods.106 and 107 I think. Might have been a couple more of which I am ignorant before they switched to 130 BCD like they produce now. It's possible the 106 and/or 107 was available drilled for a smaller inner, but I've not personally seen one drilled like that.
Regards,
Jerry Moos Big Spring, TX
John Thompson wrote:
greenjersey@ntlworld.com wrote:
> Maybe I've imagined this but didn't Stronglight have a chainset with
> 144mm rings where the inner ring had bolt holes for a small third
> ring?
You may be thinking of the mod. 105, which used the same BCD as mod. 93 but could take a new-style double-drilled mod 99 ring as the middle, and use a mod. 99 ring down to 28T as the inner.
-- John (john@os2.dhs.org) Appleton WI USA _______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 22:18:26 +0000 From: rodk3d@comcast.net To: oroboyz@aol.com, bgcycles@svn.net Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Richie Sachs adds a comment..Re: NAHBS Thoughts Message-ID: <030820062218.5879.440F583200039F3A000016F722073000330BCC050B019D@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 2
Maybe if you can't beat them, you should join them. Markets change and if you don't change with them you will fail. I think this is true in any business. Seen any "record" stores lately? I would happily pay "extra" over a Surly or Soma for a Taiwanese built, Bruce Gordon designed touring frame. I know it isn't the direction Bruce wants to go, but a guy has to eat. Seems to me the Rock-n-Road and BLT are perfectly suited to being built overseas.
Please don't hate me Bruce, I need a couple of racks!
cheers, kudos and success to all you framebuilders!!!!! Rod Kronenberg Fort Collins, CO
> (I wish E-Richie would rejoin the CR list so I don't have to relay
> stuff, but I still am glad everyone is kicking this around...I really
> love what these guys make...)
>
> << Bruce wrote:
> "I have sold 3 frames in the last 16 years."....and ...."Most of my
> business for the last 16 years has been making more utilitarian TIG
> welded touring frames and racks."
>
> Richard replys:
> << At least 16 years ago you decide to go price-point and compete with
> the very companies that would eventually give the consumer,
> consumer, a choice. Had you not done this, perhaps you would have made
> and sold more "custom" frames. But you gave your market an option, and
> that option became your cash cow, enabling you to (also) make (only)
> one frame every 5 years. Now you say even the cash cow isn't producing
> milk.
> I came away from the '05 Houston show and from the San Jose show from
> last weekend pleasantly amazed at the enthusiasm and zeal that all the
> builders - particularly the newer guys - brought to their work.
> I feel that this is what carries them and gives them a reason to come
> in to work every day. We all felt that way once. Some of us still do.
> Maybe you should infect yourself with a shot of what's out there. Let
> it be contagious. The sky is not falling, ya' know.
> e-RICHIE©T® >>
>
> Dale Brown
> Greensboro, NC USA
> http://www.classicrendezvous.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Gordon
> Subject: RE: [BOB] NAHBS Thoughts (late and long and opinionated)
>
> Someone asked my purpose in writing about this.
> I'm writing to expose "the dirty little secret of the bike biz", that
> no one
> wants to talk about.
> First I want to commend Don for the show. It was the most unique
> gathering
> I have been to in my 35 years in the bike business, it was also the most
> troubling.
> I write this because I think most of the visitors are totally unaware
> of the
> plight of the small builder.
> First - I really like bikes, I like making them, I like thinking about
> them,
> I like riding them - I hate the bike business. Like many of you - I
> might
> say that I am passionate about bikes.
> One of the most disturbing moments of the weekend was when I was having
> dinner at the hotel after spending an exhausting day at the show
> talking to
> people. A builder whom I really respect, who has been building about as
> long as I have, quietly ordered a bowl of soup. I could tell it was not
> because he was not hungry - it was because entrees were $15 to $20.
> In the last 18 months I have been to 5 shows like the NAHBS. Don's
> show in
> San Jose was the biggest. I have been to the Velo Rendezvous in
> Pasadena 2
> times, the Cirque in North Carolina, and the Handmade Bike Fair in Tokyo
> Japan. In each show except the NAHBS I have won first place awards for
> my
> bikes. I am humbled and honored by the awards. However, it has cost
> over
> $20,000 with almost no sales. I have sold 3 frames in the last 16
> years. I
> was hoping to sell some of the prize winners at the NAHBS show to recoup
> some of my expenses. No luck (they are still all for sale) and I spent
> $2000 to attend and display.
> Making the fancy lugged frames bikes is very therapeutic for me. It
> gets me
> back to my roots.
> At the NAHBS I got to talk to some builders I have known and admired
> for 30+
> years. We talked bikes, but we also talked business. I handed out an
> anonymous questionnaire I had printed up about the business. Some of
> the
> answers might shock you. The first question was "what should a
> competent
> frame builder earn a year?" The most common answer was $40,000 to
> $50,000
> per year - certainly not Greedy. I have a 30 year old friend who is a
> Union
> Plumber who just turned Journeyman. He just started a job in San
> Francisco
> doing copper piping in a new Condominium at $43 per hour + health
> coverage +
> retirement. I should have been a plumber. I could have afforded to go
> the
> Plumbing Shows and show off my fancy edged carved Copper plumbing
> fittings.
> I found in the questionnaire that no one including the well known small
> builders even made $35,000. Most were about $20,000, which is where I
> fit
> in. I asked if they could ever retire on their current income -
> everyone
> replied NO. As for health insurance - 75% had no insurance, or if they
> had
> insurance - most had it through their spouse.
> When I started building in 1974 with Albert Eisentraut he would say:
> "You
> won't get rich building frames, but, you can make a living."
> For the first 28 years of my business I could always afford an employee,
> that has not been the case for the last 4 years. Even working alone I
> have
> had to dip into my personal savings to pay the bills. If sales stay the
> same, I have 1 or 2 more years left before my savings are gone.
> Most of my business for the last 16 years has been making more
> utilitarian
> TIG welded touring frames and racks. But even those TIGed bike sales
> have
> dropped from 60 to 70 bikes a year to 25 last year. Is it because my
> stuff
> is lousy?? I don't think so. I think I make pretty good, reasonably
> priced
> touring stuff.
> What has happened is that the business has been taken over by what I
> call
> "Marketers". People who have discovered that "Why make it yourself if
> you
> can have it made overseas for a lot less?". That way you can spend
> more on
> marketing, which seems to work better. Fine, some will say, THAT IS
> CAPITALISM!. But, something to think about is this. Over the past 30
> odd
> years I have seen many innovations in the bike biz. Almost all were
> from 1
> to 3 person shops. A couple that come to mind are Merlin, the first
> viable
> Titanium frames (early TI attempts, Teledyne, etc. just did not work)
> and
> especially Mountain Bikes. Now, if you go into a bike shop - 90 to 95%
> of
> Mountain Bikes are made in Taiwan or China. If we were to wait for the
> Taiwanese or Chinese to invent the Mountain Bike - we would still be
> waiting.
> One of my most vivid memories of my first trip to France in the late
> 1980's
> was that it was a country that almost everyone drove French cars. Not
> because they were the best, they weren't (they have vastly improved
> since),
> but because they were built by French people, and they liked to support
> their own industry.
> What has hurt my business the most are the Rivendells, Surlys, Somas,
> Kogswells, etc. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THEIR
> PRODUCTS!!!!!
> When Rivendell started - they were only going to be made in USA, then,
> maybe
> some made in Japan, then, OK maybe some from Taiwan. It is a slippery
> slope, and there is NO chairlift back to the top of the mountain.
> For me in California, I cannot compete with a $249 wholesale Surly
> Touring
> frame. I know the argument - we are better in the USA doing the
> designing
> and outsourcing the production. B.S. - People in India, Taiwan and
> China
> have the same computers we have. In fact, my Hewlett Packard computer
> as
> made in China. They also have people who can use them. The only jobs
> that
> can not be outsourced are the jobs pouring your coffee at Starbucks,
> and the
> job wearing an "Orange Apron" and saying - "Welcome to Home Depot".
> That gets me back to the question of why I wrote the original post. If
> we
> want to have the passionate, small, innovative builders - we have to
> start
> buying from them. We need to buy from the people who are passionate
> about
> building them, NOT just from the passionate people who Market them. I
> doubt
> that the factory workers in Taiwan, or China, etc. are passionate about
> bikes like you are.
>
> If you got this far - thanks for reading and letting me get this off my
> chest.
> Regards,
> Bruce Gordon
> Bruce Gordon Cycles
> http://www.bgcycles.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 17:24:44 -0500 From: "Tim Fricker" To: "Angel Garcia" Cc: CLASSIC RENDEZVOUS Subject: Re: [CR]FS: 1967 Bottecchia More Info Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <70e14d4c0603081303l59ba2b4ch87357f6f36e44942@mail.gmail.com> References: <70e14d4c0603081303l59ba2b4ch87357f6f36e44942@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 3
I may be wrong, but one picture appears to show SunTour Superbe brake levers, which are certainly NOT stock on a '67 Bottecchia. The rest looks like it makes sense though, from what little I know.
Tim
On 3/8/06, Angel Garcia wrote:
> As written by the seller:
> Bottecchia Giro d'Italia model Road bike. Components match up with period
> catalog, so the bicycle appears to have all stock components.
>
> Components:
> Campagnolo Record derailleurs and shifters. Chrome plated brass rear with
> modern jockey wheels.
> Universal centerpull brakes and levers.Campagnolo Nuovo Tipo high flange
> hubs with Fiamme RED old logo tubular rims. Nervar Star crankset with Ner
va
> r
> bottom bracket. 175mm crank arms. Standard threaded.
> GranPrix Nylon Saddle. Carnelli Stem.
>
> Angel Garcia
> Verona, Italy
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Angel Garcia
> Date: Mar 8, 2006 4:01 PM
> Subject: FS: 1967 Bottecchia
> To: CLASSIC RENDEZVOUS
>
>
> I don't know ANYTHING about this dude but he's posted photos at:
> http://www.imagestation.com/
> Falbum%2Fpictures.html%3Fid%3D2108509336
>
>
> Contact info as:
> getweezer@yahoo.com ("in Southern California").
>
> Angel Garcia
> Verona, Italy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
-- Tim Fricker bikes@vienna, llc Recumbents, folders, tandems, commuters, etc. ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 17:33:22 -0500 From: Phil Sieg To: Classic Rendezvous Subject: [CR]Saxon twin tube on eBay Message-ID: <440F5BB2.8060405@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4
List member Martin Coopland has a Saxon twin tube up on ebay.
#7224900681.
He's guessing '50s. I know from the archives that Claud Bulter bought the marque either right before or right after the war and produced a lugless version of the twin tube in the early '50s. This frame is lugged, however, with the number 9342 stamped in a Cyclo rear dropout.
Can anyone shed additional light on the possible date of the frame or how to interpret the frame number?
TIA
-- Phil Sieg Knoxville, Tennessee
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 17:37:06 -0500 From: "Silver, Mordecai" To: "Classic Rendezvous" Subject: [CR]Fotheringham's Roule Britannia -- anyone read it? Message-ID: <773FCCCDD769824588198305178278910C5363FC@isomailp3.iso.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 5
Has anyone on this list read "Roule Britannia: A History of Britons in the Tour De France," by William Fotheringham? I'd appreciate an opinion on whether this is worth buying. Fotheringham is also the author of a Tom Simpson bio, "Put Me Back on My Bike."
Here's the synopsis at amazon.co.uk:
Fifty years ago, ten Britons crossed the Channel and made history. For the first time, a team of British cyclists took part in the Tour de France, the most grueling event in the sporting calendar. It was a struggle beyond their worst imaginings. The riders had little idea of what to expect - many spoke no French; most had never even seen the Tour before - and, eleven days in, the team had been reduced to just two men. Still, those two men would bring British cycling to the attention of the world and make countless friends. Both finished the race. One of them, Brian Robinson, even made the top thirty. As Cycling magazine put it, 'This is indeed a great moment in our sporting history.' Roule Britannia celebrates the fiftieth anniversary of a Briton first completing the Tour, and the half-century of cultural exchange and British cycling's fight for recognition that followed. During those fifty years only two Tours would take place without at least one Briton on the start line, and more than fifty British cyclists have taken part. Through exclusive interviews with and profiles of all those who have competed, William Fotheringham gives us the definitive record of their achievement, from those first stumbling efforts and the death of Tom Simpson, to the golden era of Sean Yates and Robert Millar, right up to Chris Boardman, David Millar and the present day, when the issue of banned drug use has clouded the great race. It is a story of joy and suffering, tragedy and courage.
Mordecai Silver NYC
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 22:41:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael Butler
To: Phil Sieg Cc: CR Rendezvous Subject: Re: [CR]Saxon twin tube on eBay Message-ID: <20060308224114.76181.qmail@web25302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <440F5BB2.8060405@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 6
Hello Phil, That's a proper pukka Saxon. Its so bloody easy to tell the difference from a Claud produced Saxon. The twin seat tubes are totally different and it ain't a Butler number. My guess is its a 1938 Saxon. Bit nearer than the ebay description. Copeland is a mega dealer and has all the right contacts with the other British dealers to get an accurate and informative description. It ain't much good on accuracy.
> List member Martin Coopland has a Saxon twin tube up
> on ebay.
>
>
http://ebay.com/
>
>
>
> #7224900681.
>
> He's guessing '50s. I know from the archives that
> Claud Bulter bought
> the marque either right before or right after the
> war and produced a
> lugless version of the twin tube in the early '50s.
> This frame is
> lugged, however, with the number 9342 stamped in a
> Cyclo rear dropout.
>
> Can anyone shed additional light on the possible
> date of the frame or
> how to interpret the frame number?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> Phil Sieg
> Knoxville, Tennessee
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
http://www.bikelist.org/
>
Thats all for now. Keep those wheels spinning, in your memories if not still on the road. Be lucky Mick Butler Huntingdon UK.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 14:48:23 -0800 (PST)
=== message truncated ===
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