Re: [CR]Badge thuggery and soap boxes

(Example: Racing:Jean Robic)

Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:35:08 -0800 (PST)
From: "Peter Naiman" <hetchinspete1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [CR]Badge thuggery and soap boxes
To: Nick March <nicbordeaux@yahoo.fr>
In-Reply-To: <781375.99233.qm@web28003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
cc: classicrendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>

Nick, First you do need to address ne so formaly, as we are all freinds on the list. I haven't been called Mr, since teaching Highschool, and Graduate School. As far as what belongs on the list, and doesn't, Below is list rule #12. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 12. Courteous exchanges only. The list is not intended as a debate forum. Passionate disagreements may not be indulged in on-list. Members should be able to participate with the expectation that their contributions will be respected and they will be free from subsequent on-list or off-list harassment. A CR list member will immediately lose their membership if they engage in any attack or negative posts to or about another CR member. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Although I'm not sure if Dale's rule applies to our letters sometimes as in mine and everybody elses on this topic, but there has been some name calling going on which I believe conontates "Negative Posts". Certainly calling someone a nerd is negative.

As for your statement: "we are not talking about people who have been collecting badges for years, sourced at a time when a load of bikes, thick on the ground, were not collectable". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Below I believe Bruce Thompson clearly shows concern over just such activities: " There are a group of collectors that have an incredible number of badges. I have seen one collection from a local Schwinn dealers in my area. Alessandro Natti (eBay seller in Italy) states that it is more common there to collect badges, not bicycles. We can only hope that the badges came from DOA BICYCLES and not just stripped from the ones that deserve restoration".

Folks with large collection have been collecting for years, and from swaps I've been to in the last 15 years, I've seen thousands of badges, many in almost very good to mint condition. If the bike was in junk status so would the badge. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Nick, I whole heartedly do agree to your point, that there are shamefully pilferers out there who will split up parts from boxes, split head clips etc, strip badges and look at bicycles only as a way of profit. I'm not attacking you. Just bringing up the following point. All on this list are well respected collectors. Please read my letter where I refer to my 1917 Ivor Johnson that complete & unrestored. I saw it split up for parts within in a month and was out raged. But if I were on Ebay and had a similar bike needing restoration, looking for parts, whether headbadge etc, how do I know where these parts I'm interested in came from.

I assume if you are a collector of bicycles, and you restore bikes as I do. Where are your parts coming from? I would assume from sellers world wide. Many sellers from the UK, that we all know well on this list, source their parts including badges from early morning swaps. Most of these parts most likely come from bikes that have been stripped and not DOA. We as collectors buy these parts to keep alive the cycles we treasure. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As for the "Soap Box" maybe in your case I'm overstating a bit, but in saying I was getting of mine, I was trying to add a little humor and was not particularly picking on you. But as far as reality, in the collecting world you will always find people who do have their opinion on what is correct and incorrect within their particular hobby and anything outside of their opinion they view as improper. Those are the few that I refer to as being on a "Soap Box".

Best regards, Peter Naiman Glendale, WI

Nick March <nicbordeaux@yahoo.fr> wrote: To Mr Peter Naiman: What belongs on the list or not is mainly, I'd say, the concern of the listmaster Dale Brown. Regarding badge lifting, we are not talking left over badges from unknown sources (old parts boxes bought in, etc), we are not talking prising them off wrecked bikes which have been under a prelimlinary crushing at a scrapyard and are totally irrecoverable (or wrecked in any other fashion), we are not talking about people who have been collecting badges for years, sourced at a time when a load of bikes, thick on the ground, were not collectable... No, we are talking about quick buck criminals who spend their time lifting badges off any and all bikes, who don't like bikes in any manner, and are just a bunch of pilfering criminals indulging in vandalism (one may care to look at the definition of vandal in a dictionnary, or Google if one has no dictionnary) , out for a quick buck. These are the guys who will as a friend put it to me sell you a NOS item in two parts: the item one listing, the box in another. Or split a derailleur in two: sell the cage in one listing, the body in another. We are talking guys whose knowlege of bikes is "that one's bage is worth "x" to some dumb collector, gimme a screwdriver quick".

Therefore, there comes a time when any self-respecting collector and/or bike lover stands up and says "NO more of this", or at the very least "I'm having no part in this".

There are loose bages of reputable provenance on the market. I have personally pointed my accusing finger at nobody in particular. But when I check out a badge sellers' listings and past bidding and see it's all on badges, I blacklist that guy: he does not see my money, however badly I need the badge or whatever he's selling. He can sit on it. I agree totally with Ted Ernst on this one: robbing a bike of it's identity for a quick buck is aggravated rape.

Preaching ? Come off it boys, since when has stating the obvious been preaching? Please...

Nick March, Mont de Marsan, France (where we don't need soap boxes to say what we think)

"...On the same note, I may assume that the vast majority of members on this list buy parts, badges etc, to rebuild their newly acquired classic. So I think it a bit strange when list members are on a "Soap Box" preaching to the choir about not wanting to buy a head badge on Ebay, or bashing the seller of a badge. We do not know where the parts or badge came from, but most likely from a classic that was stripped. Unless we are an extreme purist who only buys fully unrestored complete Vintage bicycles, we are all part of the feeding chain.

I do agree with a fellow list member who wrote earlier today. Casting aspersions on unknown sellers is in poor taste, whether calling them nerds from France or Hippies on Fixed Gears. Such brow beating and name calling doesn't belong on this list.

Just my long winded point of view. I'll now get down off of my soap box.

Regards, Peter Naiman Glendale, WI"

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