While you did a pretty good job referencing and such...at the end you were a little dishonest in addressing the point I was making - and instead decided to go the "flame" and "you're imposing" route thereby ducking the point I was making.
So here it is in a nutshell...but I leave it up to you to decide which it is in
your mind as the CR list watches:
In a supposedly open and liberal society that respects the rights of individuals to the pursuit of life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness, which statement of advocacy is more amicable to that society:
Statement A
If bikes are to become more widely used in America, and I think it is highly desirable that they should, we must develop a culture that sees cycling a desirable, healthy, and socially responsible, all of which are true IMHO.
Statement B
If bikes are to become more widely used in society, it is up to us as individual cyclists and cycling orgnizations to persuade others using facts and
well reasoned arguments regarding the economics, utility, benefits and risks of
cycling as another exercise in everyday politcal, personal and economic freedom
of choice.
I have no desire to however tempting it is to impose...however as long as I live in a free country - however longer that will last - I will take offense to
folks who throw out a statement that in my opinion undermines by it's very wording and meaning freedom of choice.
Want to persuade me? Go for it...but try to tell me what is desirable, healthy
and socially responsible by "development" carries the implication of imposition
by policy. That is almost by definition what communists, socialists and control freaks do.
I'll say it again....I believe in a free country...where you make your case with others - and then - walk away win or lose. Going any further tends to drive people away from your goal. That's been my experience.
=8-)
Robert Shackelford San Jose, CA USA
Quoting Kai Hilbertz <khilbertz@googlemail.com>:
> Dec. 18, 08
>
> Hello Robert, cc List,
>
> going sequentially, Amir used two innocuos descriptions in his
> original e-mail, cute and maybe even on topic.
>
> You flamed him, the words you used were; "contrived, anti-car, anti-
> conservative, anti-libertarian agenda, I have to question why they are
> on a bike in the first place". Then you brought in a non-applicable
> comparison that many would find misogynist. Then; "Maybe some cyclists
> out there need to think about the above..." Why cyclist should need to
> think about this off-base comparison escapes me.
>
> In his response, Ted Ernst was courteous and didn't flame you.
>
> In his response, Jerry Moos was courteous and didn't flame you.
>
> In your second e-mail you further alluded to your views, noting that
> people who talk of social responsibility are actually socialist or
> communist who want to impose themselves on others, to say nothing of
> phony conservatives. Further, the others made "loaded statements"
> which are "impositions" and easy to swallow(?) as they are pill-coated.
>
> The funny thing is, you're imposing yourself on the CR List. This is
> just little old me, but I say if you want to start a flaming war,
> please do so somewhere else.
>
> Kai Hilbertz (the non socialist, non-communist European)
> Munich, Germany
>
>
>
>
> On 18.12.2008, at 20:54, <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net> wrote:
>
> > I'll thought I'd strip out something from the commentary below that
> > I think
> > serves as a perfect example of what I think underlies so many aspects
> > of "bicycle culture" and "bicycling advocacy" that results in
> > friction or the
> > turning off of others to cycling and the cycling community:
> >
> >
> > "If bikes are to become more widely used in America, and I think it
> > is highly
> > desirable that they should, we must develop a culture that sees
> > cycling a
> > desirable, healthy, and socially responsible, all of which are true
> > IMHO."
> >
> >
> > We already have a culture in America called "American Culture" that
> > encompasses
> >
> > the following:
> >
> > 1. An appreciation for technological development and change
> > including the
> > field of transportation is which bicycles are an existing and viable
> > option.
> >
> > 2. A recognition of the individual right to determine for oneself
> > what is
> > desireable or not.
> >
> > 3. A recognition of the individual right to determine for oneself
> > what is
> > healthy or not - one man's cup of tea isn't necessarily another's.
> >
> > 4. A recognition of the rule of law, and a jury's right to
> > determine when one
> > individual has violated another individual's right to privacy,
> > property, etc.
> >
> > (Have to admit they are under attack lately...)
> >
> > Socially responsible? Usually when I hear that phrase it comes from
> > the mouth
> > of a socialist or communist who want to IMPOSE their view as policy
> > and deny to
> >
> > others the same. Lately they have come from phony conservatives in
> > sheeps
> > clothing.
> >
> > If you want to persuade...great! Go for it...and respect the rights
> > of those
> > who aren't persuaded. Your loaded statement doesn't argue for
> > persuasion - but
> >
> > rather imposition wrapped in an easy to swallow pill coating.
> >
> > I'll take my own thank you...
> >
> > =8-)
> >
> > Robert Shackelford
> > San Jose, CA USA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>:
> >
> >> I agree with Ted. I found this clever and amusing also, and the
> >> attiutude
> >> towards motorists was one of good-natured condescension, not the
> >> active and
> >> occasionally violent hostility one sometimes sees among the most
> >> extreme
> >> bicycle activists in the US.
> >>
> >> If bikes are to become more widely used in America, and I think it
> >> is highly
> >> desirable that they should, we must develop a culture that sees
> >> cycling a
> >> desirable, healthy, and socially responsible, all of which are true
> >> IMHO.
> >> Evidently Denmark already possesses such a culture, and they should
> >> be
> >> admired for that. I don't see that they are demonizing motorists,
> >> indeed one
> >> of the items mentioned leaving the car parked while cycling to
> >> work, meaning
> >> they feel no guilt about owning an automobile.
> >>
> >> I'm hardly an anti-car fanatic, and indeed I work at an oil
> >> refinery and have
> >> worked in refineries most of my life. I see no contradiction in
> >> using
> >> petroleum and automobiles where they are really needed or highly
> >> beneficial,
> >> while using bicycles (or walking or mass transport) whenever we
> >> can. I do
> >> find it a bit ironic to commute by cycle to work at a refinery, but
> >> ironic in
> >> a pleasant way. I think Denmark and some other European countries
> >> have a
> >> healthier balance of auto use with its alternatives than we do in
> >> America,
> >> and I think we would do well to learn from them. A national belief
> >> in the
> >> superiority of every single aspect of one's own culture is not a
> >> sign of
> >> strength, but a fatal weakness that will eventually destroy any
> >> society.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Jerry Moos
> >> Big Spring, Texas, USA
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Thu, 12/18/08, ternst <ternst1@cox.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: ternst <ternst1@cox.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [CR]18 Way to Know You Have Bike Culture
> >> To: mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net, "Amir Avitzur"
> >> <walawalaoxenfree@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> >> Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 12:28 PM
> >>
> >> Let's not take this too personal or seriously.
> >> I chuckled a little with the actuality as it is in Denmark, coupled
> >> with
> >> some tongue in cheek.
> >> To understand it from THEIR society and how they view it, one has
> >> to have
> >> been there, stayed a while, and ridden bikes around the towns and
> >> countryside.
> >> I have done so.
> >> As as a country we have been so big and dominant so long we have
> >> tended to
> >> be more isolationist and become too provincial in many ways, so we
> >> don't
> >> really "get it", witness our standing in the world today when it
> >> comes to
> >> giving other countries respect, dignity, and understanding.
> >> In many countries the bike is THE MODE of transport. We are a car
> >> dominated
> >> society.
> >> Bike people here may be in some facets of our sport more a CULT
> >> than an
> >> actual CULTURE!
> >> It's always important to recognize and understand the difference.
> >> Ride your bike and enjoy! To hell with the rest! Loosen up those
> >> legs and
> >> your brain.
> >> Ride and let ride.
> >> Ted Ernst
> >> Palos Verdes Estates
> >> CA USA
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net>
> >> To: "Amir Avitzur" <walawalaoxenfree@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 9:37 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [CR]18 Way to Know You Have Bike Culture
> >>
> >>
> >>> Honestly, I didn't find it cute...nor on topic. Actually, I thought
> >> every
> >>> item
> >>>
> >>> was contrived...and sensed an anti-car, anti-conservative,
> >>> anti-libertarian
> >>> agenda in it as well.
> >>>
> >>> One though was right on spot: "I just ride."
> >>>
> >>> Seriously, if someone feels the need to subscribe to some kind of
> >>> "culture" as
> >>> part of riding on or working with bicycles - I have to question
> >>> why they
> >>> are on
> >>>
> >>> a bike in the first place.
> >>>
> >>> Is it possible that it's because they have to, and hate it, and
> >> suscribing
> >>> to
> >>> a "culture" is their way of dealing with it. Maybe such
> >> cyclists really
> >>> are
> >>> envious of motorists? Jealous? Debate away...I have better
> >>> things to
> >>> do...
> >>>
> >>> In my case, I like bicycles. I like cars. I just ride and drive
> >>> 'em.
> >>
> >>> And
> >>> even when I can't afford a car, big deal. I just get on with it...
> >>>
> >>> Even though I don't really listen much to Dr. Laura, one time I did
> >> listen
> >>> in
> >>> when she made a point that I think might just fit right in here...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "There are two kinds of women. There are those who hate men.
> >> Complain
> >>> about
> >>> men. Attack men. Whine about this and that and equality outside
> >>> and in
> >>> the
> >>> home...etc...and spend their life being miserable. Then there
> >>> are those
> >>> women
> >>>
> >>> who understand that men are born to women, raised by women, and
> >>> married to
> >>> women...and they use that power wisely."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Maybe some cyclists out there need to think about the above and
> >>> apply it
> >>> to
> >>> their cycling life, their relationship with motorists, etc...and
> >>> give it
> >>> some
> >>> more thought.
> >>>
> >>> =8-)
> >>>
> >>> Robert Shackelford
> >>> San Jose, CA USA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Quoting Amir Avitzur <walawalaoxenfree@gmail.com>:
> >>>
> >>>> This is cute and, maybe even, on topic.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.copenhagenize.com/
> >>> bicycle.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Happy Holidays
> >>>>
> >>>> Amir Avitzur
> >>>> R"G Israel
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
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> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
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> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> > _______________________________________________
>
>
>
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