Jerry,
I'd hope that I've got more in common with your West Texas cowboys, than I have with the Home Counties 'horsey set' who frequently clutter the minor roads and by-ways in the area where I live; however, I have had the occasional business transaction with some of the equestrian merchants who service their needs, although I don't think that the subject of saddle soap and/or glycerin(e) has ever arisen in our conversations.
The construction of equestrian saddles is fundamentally different from that of the 'traditional' suspension-type cycle saddle, and what is best for one may not be suited to t'other; similarly, the function of a cycle saddle is so different from that of, say, work or walking boots, or baseball gloves (to cite other regularly mentioned examples of 'how to...') as to render the analogy totally misleading. The significant use of any sort of oil on this type of cycle saddle, in my experience, serves to impair/eliminate the cardinal virtues of the leather - i.e. it's resilience, 'breathability', and (more subjectively, perhaps) aesthetics.
I don't think that the oiling (or greasing, even) of the underside of a cycle saddle is ever a good idea, and, if you've an irresistable need for a waterproof saddle, I don't think you should be using a 'traditional' leather one.
Regards, Tony Colegrave. Northiam, E. Sussex, U.K.
> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 09:53:19 -0700
> From: jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net
> Subject: Re: [CR] Soaking saddles - Saddle Soap and Glycerine
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org; tony_colegrave@hotmail.com
>
>
> Tony, in regard to your discussion of saddle soap and its beneficial glycerine content, I yesterday stopped by the farm/ranch supply store, a common fixture in rural West Texas. I picked up a large tin of paste-type saddle soap, but they also had another product labeled "Liquid Glygerine Saddle Soap" in a spray bottle.
>
> I know that UK has a number of enthusiastic equistrians, albeit probably typically members of rather a different social class from our West Texas cowboys. But I assume that there are similar liquid products for horse saddles in UK, and that one with long experience with bicycle saddles would be familiar with these equistrian products. Do you think these liquid saddle soaps with glycerine are useful for treating the underside as well as the topside of a leather saddle? Could one safely use them somewaht routinely on the underside, as opposed to Proofide, which you advocate limiting to the topside?
>
> A question for the list in general - what is the experience with the Ideale model 39? I seem to have become a bit of an Ideale collector of late and have managed to accumulate at least one example each of mods 39, 40, 42, 43, 44, 45, 52, 59(dural), 70, 80 Type Record, 80 Special Competition, 90 in steel, dural and titanium, 92 Diagonale, and 134 in the regular and Columbia editions, not to mention the plastic 2001 and 2002.
>
> I have several mod 39's but have never really ridden one any distance. They weren't held in high regard in America In The Day, but this may have been due, aside from the greater popularity of Brooks here, with the fact that the mod 39 was one of the least expensive of the road model Ideales, while the top French bikes came with mod 90. But my experience so far has been the the line of Ideale saddles found on quality lightweights is nearly always of high quality regardless of price point. The more expensive models have chromed frames and copper rivets, and perhaps the grade of leather was a bit better, but the leather quality seems quite good throughout the line. I have heard some complain that the mod 39 took a long time to break in. Any other rap against the mod 39?
>
> BTW, I find the market for old Ideale saddles fascinating. A few minutes ago I picked up a supposedly NOS mod 45 on eBay for $36, seatpost and clamp included. While at the other end of the price spectrum, check out this:
>
> http://ebay.com/
>
> Mod 54 leather top with cantle plate and nose bracket, no frame, clamp or nose bolt, $370. This top will fit the Ideale Dural frames. It seems the most fancied models are those which had alloy frames or were available with such. Although models 80 and 90 were actually seen with alloy frames (and mod 90 at least with Ti as well) the most popular Ideales seem to be mods 54 and 57, followed by mod 59. I do think this has a lot to do with their frequent appearance on old French constructeur bikes, including those that appeared in the Technical Trials. This has long made them sought after in Japan, and I think Jan Heine's chronicling of the constructers and the Technical Trials has spread the interest in the Ideale models often found on them worldwide.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
> Big Spring, Texas, USA
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Tony Colegrave <tony_colegrave@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Tony Colegrave <tony_colegrave@hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [CR] Soaking saddles - The 'Expert' Responds
> > To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > Cc: jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net
> > Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 5:54 AM
>
> > As I seem to have been drawn into this
> > thread (by proxy, if you will), I feel that it's appropriate
> > that I should try to correct one or two misapprehensions
> > regarding my views on the matter under discussion, albeit
> > somewhat late in the day. E-mail correspondence is, IMO, an
> > unsatisfactory medium in which to express oneself in a lucid
> > and precise manner, and one which tends to exacerbate the
> > old trans-Atlantic 'two nations, divided ....' syndrome,
> > but, as it seems that this stuff is archived (?verb) for
> > posterity, I'll try to make myself plain(er).
> > I don't think that soaking a saddle for
> > longer than 24 hours will really enhance the process -
> > overnight should be more than adequate. Longer soaking may
> > initially improve the appearance of a 'badly cracked'
> > saddle, but no amount of soaking will do anything to 'heal'
> > these defects - if defects they are; most of us, especially
> > if we're of a 'certain age' (only slightly older than most
> > of the saddles that we're considering, in the main?), will
> > have acquired a few cracks and creases of our own, but,
> > although we're told that our living tissue can be 'repaired'
> > to some extent that is not possible with dead animal skin,
> > most (I hope) will prefer to see these 'defects' as
> > conferring a degree of distinction. But, I digress...
> > The best 'treatment' for a badly cracked
> > leather saddle, provided that it is stll structurally sound,
> > is to ride it regularly, with love and the occasional light
> > dressing of 'Proofide'. Most of these things have
> > languished, unloved and neglected, for many years, and it
> > can be surprising (sometimes, but not always) just how well
> > they'll respond to a bit of TLC.
> > I think Jerry has mis-understood my
> > comments about the leather 'tearing at the rivet holes'
> > (which is where it usually occurs, of course). 'Abuse and
> > overtightening' implies to me an active assault on the
> > saddle, but I think that most of these things have been
> > damaged simply by neglect; a leather saddle which has been
> > kept in an unsuitable environment, often unused for many
> > years, may well have 'lost it's nature', and the fibers
> > (?American sp.) become brittle - once this has happened,
> > nothing can feasibly be done to 'revive' it.
> > Little mention has been made of my
> > concomitant advice that, after soaking and assessing that
> > it's probable that the saddle still has a life worth saving,
> > it's nearly always important to cleanse the leather with
> > saddle soap; I do this in mildly warm water and, having
> > rinsed the resulting crud away, I rub more soap into the
> > leather and leave it to dry - saddle soap these days seems
> > to contain considerably more glycerine than domestic soaps,
> > and this will probably provide all the 'essential oil' that
> > the saddle needs. As regards drying, I certainly don't
> > advise the use of excessive heat, but I'd think that 'in a
> > dark room' is probably taking it too far the other way;
> > ideally, you'll need a good flow of air in a warm-ish
> > environment - say, by an open window, on a Summer's day and
> > out of direct sunlight, and it should be ready to dress
> > (lightly, and topside only, I'd suggest) with 'Proofide'
> > within 24 hours. However, 'in a dark room' may well be a
> > very suitable environment for maintaining any such saddle
> > when it's not in use; what I'd suggest is ideal, is a
> > slightly damp cellar, with good air-flow and constant mild
> > temperature - certainly no central heating. Might not suit
> > the rest of the bike, though.
> > One thing that Jerry has most certainly
> > mis-understood, is my opinion regarding the quality of the
> > leather that Brooks are using for their current production.
> > It's quite true that concerns have been expressed regarding
> > the raw material available to tanners these days, and it may
> > well be that even the best finished product 'lacks
> > substance' compared with that available in the past (as has
> > been suggested to me recently, regarding the stuff that I'm
> > using), but I'm quite convinced that the leather used by
> > Brooks (especially that awful material that those poor
> > devils in B'ham are having to use to make the so-called
> > 'aged' models) is nothing like the best that is currently
> > available. I have had conversations with the Italian
> > management of the Company, but I don't think it appropriate
> > that I should discuss these in this forum - even if I had
> > the time, which I really don't have at present.
> > Tony Colegrave, Northiam, E.Sussex, U.K.
> >
> > > Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 10:34:08 -0700
> > > From: jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net
> > > To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org;
> > johnb@oxford.net
> > > Subject: Re: [CR] Soaking saddles - The Expert
> > Responds
> > >
> > >
> > > Tony had little time and only really responded to the
> > issues of detensioning the saddle, probable cause of tearing
> > at the rivets, and his opinion that presoaking won't help
> > new saddles from inferior hides.
> > >
> > > I change the water after a day or overnight.
> > Soaking will bring a lot of excess oils, including Proffide,
> > to the surface, especially on the underside. I clean
> > it off with saddle soap, sometimes using a scrub sponge -
> > scrub sponge only on underside. I did this on an old
> > Ideale model 44 just this morning. I've probably now
> > soaked or am in process on 8 or 9 saddle. Almost every
> > one has been a success. The two newish Brooks regained
> > shape after the slight early sag, although Tony's comments
> > might suggest this won't last. One old Brooks Pro that
> > had good shape but was badly cracked improved a lot but was
> > still pretty cracked after it dried. It's back in the
> > bucket for another couple of days. Will dry more
> > slowly indoors this time as Tony seems to suggests.
> > I've yet to see a case where there wasn't at least some
> > improvement and in no case has it done any harm.
> > >
> > > This should go without saying, but one way you CAN do
> > harm is by tensioning the saddle while still wet.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Jerry Moos
> > > Big Spring, Texas, USA
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 5/30/09, John Betmanis <johnb@oxford.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: John Betmanis <johnb@oxford.net>
> > > > Subject: Re: [CR] Soaking saddles - The Expert
> > Responds
> > > > To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > > > Date: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 11:55 AM
> > > > At 08:28 AM 30/05/2009 -0700, Jerome
> > > > & Elizabeth Moos wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >I've received an offlist response from Tony
> > > > Colegrave.
> > > > >
> > > > >In regard to tensioning, he advises that it
> > can be a
> > > > sensible precaution
> > > > to detension or even remove the nose bolt before
> > beginning
> > > > if circumstances
> > > > permit.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Was there any response from anyone on or off-list
> > whether
> > > > the water should
> > > > be changed when it turns black after several
> > hours? My own
> > > > personal sense
> > > > would be not to change it because you'd end up
> > leeching
> > > > more of the
> > > > "goodness" out of the saddle. I also wonder if it
> > would
> > > > help to try and
> > > > scrape off any excess Proofide or try washing it
> > off with
> > > > alcohol before
> > > > soaking, or would soaking eventually just lift it
> > off
> > > > anyway?
> > > >
> > > > As for soaking hiking boots, as someone
> > mentioned, I've
> > > > also heard that's
> > > > how you're supposed to break in new cowboy boots.
> > Fill them
> > > > with water and
> > > > wear them night and day until they're dry. Not
> > sure I'd
> > > > want to do that
> > > > with a pair that cost more than a titanium Brooks
> > saddle.
> > > >
> > > > John Betmanis
> > > > Woodstock, Ontario
> > > > Canada
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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