Bob, I was, of course, curious since I still have a Quinn from 1973. The decals are certainly convincing. I was surprised to see the relatively unfiled lugwork. The lugs on my frame almost disappear into the tubes, and have a distinctive three hole design on the top lugs. Of course lugs were purchased from specialty houses, and perhaps the original owner of that frame wanted a frame without the expense of fancy lugs. I also noted that the seat tube was 27.2. I've had two Quinns and both were 27.0, both within a year of yours. The frame does otherwise look like a Quinn. I agree with a previous comment that Tange was probably not the original headset. It was also curious to see the painted fork crown. All of those originally shipped to Velo Sport in Berkeley (one of which I still have) had chromed crowns, fork ends and dropouts. But these are all custom frames, so differences are to be expected. I'd still bet it is legit, possibly with a replacement fork. Mine are wonderful handling bikes, quick but not quirky.
Mike Breen Oakland, CA
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 10:16 AM To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 82, Issue 140
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Mafac 2000 brake (transverse) cables (billydavid13@comcast.net) 2. How to pull pressed in bearing races from Campy Hubs (Bill Kloos) 3. Girl's Frejus (Strickler, George M Jr.) 4. P/R or R/P (crumpy6204@aol.com) 5. For Sale Five British frames, Hobbs, Rotrax, Holdsworth, Shorter, Pollard (Hilary Stone) 6. Harry Quinn on ebay (Bob Hillery) 7. Re: Tony Oppermann's unidentified English frame - now Bespoke frames. (Nic Henderson) 8. Mafac 2000 brake (transverse) cables (Wayne Bingham) 9. Re: Harry Quinn on ebay (Jerome & Elizabeth Moos) 10. Re: Pink Mercier Pix (Hugh Thornton) 11. Re: Mafac 2000 brake (transverse) cables (Phil Brown) 12. Ciocc- how to date? worthy of restoration? (Tom Martin) 13. Re: Harry Quinn on ebay (John Betmanis)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:01:31 +0000 From: <billydavid13@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [CR] Mafac 2000 brake (transverse) cables To: Mark Lawrence <mark.lawrence@firstreadthis.com> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Message-ID:
<1819039273.48441256565691653.JavaMail.root@sz0035a.emeryville.ca.mail.comca st.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi Mark, all. I wonder if one could file [or dremel] the ends on a Weinmann/DiaCompe transverse cable to fit the 2000/Competitions. Are they too long? Has anyone ever tried this? I'm thinking the Comps and 2000s?ARE interchangable. If so is there a source for the latter? Thanks. Billy Ketchum; Chicago, IL; USA.
Does anyone know if Mafac 2000 brake (transverse) cables are interchangeable with Mafac Competition cables, as this ebay listing suggests: 370280409464
Failing that, does anyone know a source of Mafac 2000 cables, even repro ones? ?I'm quite surprised that there doesn't seem to be an aftermarket of these cables. ?Perhaps due to some principle of engineering that I'm ignorant of, they simply don't wear out.
Best wishes, Mark
Mark Lawrence Oxford United Kingdom _______________________________________________
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 07:33:00 -0700 From: Bill Kloos <billkloos@landuseoregon.com> Subject: [CR] How to pull pressed in bearing races from Campy Hubs To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Cc: Bill Kloos <billkloos@landuseoregon.com> Message-ID: <013e01ca5649$38c3ae30$aa4b0a90$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Jack --This nail method works great. Start with a 16d framing nail and no need to grind the head. This is a slow, two beer exercise. As for support on the bottom of the hub, buy a stout PVC coupling from the plumbing section of the hardware store with a diameter smaller than the hub shell. Set the hub on the end of that PVC. Good support; not to hard; not too soft.
Bill Kloos Eugene, OR 97401 e-mail: billkloos@landuseoregon.com
------------------------
Subject: Re: [CR] How to pull pressed in bearing races from Campy hubs? To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <05D32310377C4AEA9577904FE97EE566@ARSPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original
Jack- A lot of guys will just use a big old nail a common headed nail large enough to go all the way through the hub. The head is ground down in diameter to just fit past the race's axle hole, the head is placed up against the back of the race and the pointy end of the nail gets hit with a hammer. Move the nail about the race's circumference and "walk" the race out
with multiple whacks.
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 21:40:58 -0400
> From: Jack Countryman <jcountry@mac.com>
> Subject: [CR] How to pull pressed in bearing races from Campy hubs?
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <C70A766A.46536%jcountry@mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> I've got a set of wheels with Campy high flange hubs, that originated on
> my
> 72 Paramount. The pressed in races in the hubs are in bad shape. I now
> have the replacement races to put in them, but haven't figured out how to
> pull the old pressed in races out, or what tool is needed to do the job.
> I
> suppose the large Campy toolsets that used to come in the wooden cases may
> have had some sort of tool for that job...but I don't have one of those
> tool
> sets. Other techniques or tools that will work?
>
> Jack Countryman
> Greensburg, IN USA
>
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:48:43 -0500 From: "Strickler, George M Jr." <gstrickler@tulane.edu> Subject: [CR] Girl's Frejus To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <63905F71CF9A794F80217187D219FA4B01B0110C@EX07.ad.tulane.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
A vintage girl's Frejus has cropped up a couple of times on this list. I think I appeared on a craig's list in Cal. Does anyone know if that bike is still available and, if so, a way to contact the seller? I just thought up a reason for trying to buy it.
George Strickler
New Orleans
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:30:40 -0400 From: <crumpy6204@aol.com> Subject: [CR] P/R or R/P To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <8CC246868BB23C9-40B8-13618@webmail-m080.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"Path racer" is just that. Race on the PATH ( track), ONLY! No oles. braze ons etc ."Road/Path" is ment most of the bikes we clubmen rode, To be used on the road AND the path(track) multi use bike,Front fork ole. mudguard braze ons. Front fork lamp boss, sometimes a rear lamp boss on the seat stays, No brake or gear cable braze ons, use only front brake.fixed wheel Strip er down and away you go! Cheers John Crump OldnogoBrit, Parker. Co USA
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:47:35 +0000 From: Hilary Stone <hilary.stone@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: [CR] For Sale Five British frames, Hobbs, Rotrax, Holdsworth, Shorter, Pollard To: classic rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <4AE5C497.7030004@blueyonder.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed
Hi everyone,
Offered to CR members are five excellent British built frames. .
I can take payment a number of ways - Paypal or cheque in GBP, cash sent registered post, Traveller?s cheques in $, direct bank transfer within the UK or European Iban bank transfer. I will always combine shipping in order to reduce costs.
Frames and wheel pairs cost 80 GBP to ship to the USA, 100 GBP to ship to Australia/New Zealand and 11 GBP within the UK.
With the pound being still quite low in value these are a real bargain... for US and European buyers.
Hilary Stone, Bristol, British Isles
HOBBS SUPERBE 1947 Fancy lugs
Seat Tube (ctt): 21in
Top Tube (ctc): 22.5in
Rear dropout width: 110mm
Wheel size: 27in/700C
Frame tubing: Almost certainly Reynolds 531 DB
Brake drop with 700C/Sprint wheel: 58mm
Hobbs were probably the first British manufacturer to adopt fancy lugs
in 1936 and the design they used then continued to be used until the
early 1950s as seen herre on this 1947 example. This frame is in very
sound condition with no dents or dings and will look truly superb once
renovated.
175GBP
http://i141.photobucket.com/
HOLDSWORTH TORNADO 1950 Gorgeous fancy lugs
Seat Tube (ctt): 22in
Top Tube (ctc): 22.5in
Rear dropout width: 115mm
Wheel size: 27in /700C
Frame tubing: Reynolds 531 DB
Brake drop with 700C/Sprint wheel: 58mm
The Tornado was Holdsworth?s model for mass start racing and was
introduced in 1950 - this must be one of the very first examples. It is
one of Holdsworth?s rarer models and is very attractive... It has been
quite nicely hand painted and fitted with the correct transfers. The
frames appears to be extremely sound.
145GBP
http://i141.photobucket.com/
POLLARD Nervex Pro c1952
Seat Tube (ctt): 24in
Top Tube (ctc): 23in
Rear dropout width: 120mm
Wheel size: 27in/700C
Frame tubing: Reynolds 531 DB
Brake drop with 700C/Sprint wheel: 58mm
Pollards were a well regarded local framebuilder in Coventry who were
certainly in business until the early 1990s. This frame with Nervex Pro
lugs of the early pattern is really rather nice.
85GBP
http://i141.photobucket.com/
SHORTER TT
Seat Tube (ctt): 21.75in
Top Tube (ctc): 21.5in
Rear dropout width: 122mm
Wheel size: 700C
Frame tubing: Reynolds 531 butted main tubes
Brake drop with 700C/Sprint wheel: 45mm
Alf Engers the great British short distance time trial specialist rode
Shorter frames in the 1970s. Their frames were not built in house but by
a variety of framebuilders including it is believed Vic Edwards and
Wally Green. This particular frame could well be a Vic Edwards built
frame - it is lighter than a standard 531 DB frame and has some really
nice details including the fastback seatstays.
95GBP
http://i141.photobucket.com/
ROTRAX SUPERCOURSE FRAME 1953
Seat Tube (ctt): 21in
Top Tube (ctc): 22in
Rear dropout width: 115mm
Wheel size: 27in/700C
Frame tubing: Reynolds 531 DB
Brake drop with 700C/Sprint wheel: 58mm
This is a very beautiful Rotrax frame which is thought to be the
Supercourse model - the normal long points on the head lugs would not
not be possible on a small frame such as this. In every other respect it
has all the Supercourse details - the wonderful reinforced pump pegs,
the most elegant rear brake bridge ever etc - and it has the remains of
its elaborate original finish featuring both white and yellow box
lining! It does however I think need refinishing... The frame is in very
sound condition, the seatstays have a few small dents from a saddlebag
support but nothing which cannot be easily filled. A wonderful frame.
Reduced to 145GBP
http://i141.photobucket.com/
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:55:24 +0000 From: Bob Hillery <rhillery@hawksi.org> Subject: [CR] Harry Quinn on ebay To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <W717061623714411256572524@webmail6> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Recent listing that may not yet have been 'outed' here" A '72 Harry Quinn frame & fork, item # 290363542493
I don't know anything about HQ other than what I've read here & on the CR site, but it is in my size & I've got a couple questions: 1. Seller says it's been clear coated to preserve decals - mmm, I could make an argument either way and not sure which side I'd settle on, keep it original or hey, good idea to keep look protected without color touch up, etc. ... guess that's not a "question" as I'm pretty sure I'll get both viewpoints, and those more vehement at either end of the spectrum ;-) 2. serial number - looks in he photo like Q2351 ... would that nbe a '72? - I have an inquiry out to the seller re: this, trying to politely ask how the year was determined. 3. Tange headset - probably not original? 4. What would a typical build have for components, if there is such a thing as a 'typical' build?
Thanks Bob Hillery , desperately looking for excuses to quit working early today and do an autumn ride in Stratham, New Hampshire, US
------------------------------
Message: 7 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:03:48 +0000 From: Nic Henderson <nic.henderson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [CR] Tony Oppermann's unidentified English frame - now Bespoke frames. To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <E9548940F8A84D38BC5167547DFFC672@NicLaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Norris Lockley wrote :- I have recently been taking stock of my tubes, lugs etc etc and, after a considerable lay-off due to spending much time in France renovating a property there, I have just started building again, and may consider undertaking a few road-paths to order.
Hey Norris, will the frames be built under the 'Bespoke' name?? The name on the frame that I so lusted after when I was a young man!!
Nic Henderson Croesyceiliog Cwmbran Torfaen U.K
------------------------------
Message: 8 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:21:30 -0400 From: Wayne Bingham <veloclassique@gmail.com> Subject: [CR] Mafac 2000 brake (transverse) cables To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <a5a5db6f0910260921l35a973fdoa05f15a758a70734@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Mark wrote:
>>>Does anyone know if Mafac 2000 brake (transverse) cables are
interchangeable with Mafac Competition cables, as this ebay listing
suggests: 370280409464
Failing that, does anyone know a source of Mafac 2000 cables, even repro
ones? I'm quite surprised that there doesn't seem to be an aftermarket of
these cables.<<<
The transverse cable for the Mafac Competition and the 2000 caliper is the same part number (#1469). I doubt anyone is making repros though. Too much effort for too little return, I suspect.
-- Wayne Bingham Velo Classique PO Box 2069 Purcellville, VA 20134 USA 540-338-8376 http://www.veloclassique.com
------------------------------
Message: 9 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:31:54 -0700 From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [CR] Harry Quinn on ebay To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, Bob Hillery <rhillery@hawksi.org> Message-ID: <318249.71828.qm@web82201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The passing of Harry and connected discussion of his bikes makes me think of the first one I ever saw. It was in Montreal, at the 1974 World Championships. A couple of us drove up and we were staying at a youth hostel at a Unitarian church, most of the young people there were in town for the Championships.
Many guys brought their bikes. I remember a Celeste Bianchi Specialissmo and a black Harry Quinn. The Quinn was notable for its short wheelbase and steep angles by the standards of the day. The course included a steep climb of Mont Royale and an equally steep descent. Many spectators went out on the course the evening before the race to ride it themselves. I remember the guy with the Quinn departing in the early evening to ride the course. Later that night he returned to the hostel with bandages from head to foot. Evidently overcooked it on the descent and crashed. Probably not the only one that evening to do so. Fortunately, the Quinn was not badly damaged.
While evidently red was the typical Quinn color, I always think of them as black because of that memory.
Regards,
Jerry Moos
Big Spring, Texas, USA
> From: Bob Hillery <rhillery@hawksi.org>
> Subject: [CR] Harry Quinn on ebay
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Date: Monday, October 26, 2009, 10:55 AM
> Recent listing that may not yet have
> been 'outed' here"
> A '72 Harry Quinn frame & fork, item # 290363542493
>
> I don't know anything about HQ other than what I've read
> here & on the CR site, but it is in my size & I've
> got a couple questions:
> 1. Seller says it's been clear coated to preserve decals -
> mmm, I could make an argument either way and not sure which
> side I'd settle on, keep it original or hey, good idea to
> keep look protected without color touch up, etc. ... guess
> that's not a "question" as I'm pretty sure I'll get both
> viewpoints, and those more vehement at either end of the
> spectrum ;-)
> 2. serial number - looks in he photo like Q2351 ... would
> that nbe a '72? - I have an inquiry out to the seller re:
> this, trying to politely ask how the year was determined.
> 3. Tange headset - probably not original?
> 4. What would a typical build have for components, if there
> is such a thing as a 'typical' build?
>
> Thanks
> Bob Hillery , desperately looking for excuses to quit
> working early today and do an autumn ride in
> Stratham, New Hampshire, US
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
------------------------------
Message: 10 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:04:38 +0000 From: Hugh Thornton <hughwthornton@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: [CR] Pink Mercier Pix To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <282194.27621.qm@web25906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Those are excellent pictures of a Mercier.? My guess would be that it is 1975-76.? I have been gathering lots of photos off the web so that I can make the restoration of my 1977 Mercier as authentic as possible, but the task is complicated, or perhaps made easier, by the fact that no two top-end Merciers from the era seem to be the same.? This one for example has brazed-on brake cable guides on the top tube, which I have not seen before on a pre-1980 bike, and drilled Campagnolo dropouts, which I had not previously seen on any other frame than my own.? The level of finish on these high-end Merciers seems to be exceptionally good, adding credence to the "handmade" decals that are usually affixed.
I was very please to see pointed out the cable ferrules fitted in place of the adjusters for the Campagnolo callipers - my bike came with incorrect adjusters and I now know that I need not worry about the virtual impossibility of finding replacements; I shall use ferrules too and persuade myself that it is authentic for a Mercier.
Hugh Thornton
Cheshire, England
From: brad stockwell <brdstockwell@yahoo.com> Subject: [CR] Pink Mercier Pix To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Date: Monday, 26 October, 2009, 3:16
Arno Volkers?was asking?about the quality of a pink Mercier, so while the
topic has come up I have uploaded some scans of a nice example, from a book
called something like the Guiness Book of Cycling.
?
The bike has some fancy stuff I've seen on other bikes, like drilled
dropouts and brazed-in brake bolts.? It also has?"Mercier" etched or formed
or carved into the front derailleur cage.
?
The cable adjusters on the campy brakes have been replaced with aluminum
ferrules; somewhere I have a photo of Zoetemelk's bike circa 1975 with this
same treatment.
?
I think the book is about 1977-ish.?The bike must be from about that time,
it has top-tube brake cable braze-ons, and an aluminum cage and "Z" clips.
?
It's a looker!? Grant Handley sold one very similar to this one on Ebay back
in 2001 or so, but it was too small for me -- I 56cm I think.
?
The link is?below, I hope the server will shake-it-not-break-it:
?
http://www.wooljersey.com/
?
? ? ? _______________________________________________
------------------------------
Message: 11 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:05:27 -0800 From: Phil Brown <philcycles@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [CR] Mafac 2000 brake (transverse) cables To: Rendezvous Classic <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <11adc1c620b8e81f634683adc96f6d03@sbcglobal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; format=flowed
On Oct 26, 2009, at 8:21 AM, Wayne Bingham wrote:
> The transverse cable for the Mafac Competition and the 2000 caliper is
> the
> same part number (#1469). I doubt anyone is making repros though. Too
> much
> effort for too little return, I suspect.
Please note that while the 2000 and some Competitions used the ball end straddle cable, there are Competitions that use a different cable with a derailleur type end one one side and a pull tab end on the other. Phil Brown Had 'em both in Oakland, Calif.
------------------------------
Message: 12 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:09:17 -0400 From: Tom Martin <tom@voimports.com> Subject: [CR] Ciocc- how to date? worthy of restoration? To: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <b40b2a3a0910261009u6428616csb7cf9a7b0f4732ae@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Hello all:
A friend has been using a Ciocc as her daily beater/commuter/ farmers market bike for the past 10 years. It's covered with stickers, has a blackburn rack ghetto clamped to it, and has an all around theft proof looking 'patina'. I saw seatstay caps with 'Ciocc' and my jaw dropped....
It was a garage sale find.
There's interest in doing some restoration type work on it on her part. I'm not sure of the exact direction to advise: Concours d' Elegance level, or a period daily rider? Strip off the stickers and hang a bunch of Campag on it? Or just upgrade the generic singlewall alloy rim/alloy hub J&B wheels that are on it now? It's not a Masi or Cinelli, but it's at least made in Italy, and at least old enough for it to be included in discussions here.
How do I deterrmine a more exact age? Did Ciocc ever spec Shimano on their bikes? At what level, beginning when?
Tom Martin
Where I am gloriously embarking on another vintage time toilet. I just hope it's worth the effort.
------------------------------
Message: 13 Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:15:45 -0400 From: John Betmanis <johnb@oxford.net> Subject: Re: [CR] Harry Quinn on ebay To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Message-ID: <4AE5D941.20909@oxford.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
Bob Hillery wrote:
> Recent listing that may not yet have been 'outed' here"
> A '72 Harry Quinn frame & fork, item # 290363542493
>
> I don't know anything about HQ other than what I've read here & on the CR
site, but it is in my size & I've got a couple questions:
> 1. Seller says it's been clear coated to preserve decals - mmm, I could
make an argument either way and not sure which side I'd settle on, keep it
original or hey, good idea to keep look protected without color touch up,
etc. ... guess that's not a "question" as I'm pretty sure I'll get both
viewpoints, and those more vehement at either end of the spectrum ;-)
As far as I know, clearcoating was not the standard method to finish bicycle frames back in the day. That's very evident from the fragmented and dilapidated state of the decals one finds on bikes with original paint from that era. Clearcoating became necessary for automotive paint when environmental concerns led to dull water based finishes. It was probably the high end U.S. custom frame builders who started using clearcoat on bikes. So, while clearcoating vintage frames may not be period correct, in my opinion it's a very good idea, unless your idea of "patina" includes fragmented and scratched decals. -- John Betmanis Woodstock, Ontario Canada
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 82, Issue 140 **************************************************