As I indicated in a post regarding my Zeus a long while back...
Understeer = having to nudge the bars more and lean more to force the planned turn.
Oversteer = of course is the opposite...
Just so you know - some automotive car reviewers will use the same in reviewing
the input to a steering wheel in comparison to the resulting turn. Remember one way back comparing what I think was an early Escort's wheel input to the resulting turn...
If you are saying we are technically incorrect - fine. I don't claim to own the copyright to "understeer" or "oversteer". Nor do engineering societies? But you did get the point of my post? Right?
On my Tommasini - I have to force the bars a tad more and and lean a tad more than I'm used to in order to make a turn the way I want to...i.e., I describe my Tommasini as having some understeer.
It's either caused by a relaxed head angle, generous fork rake or both?
My Zeus however is interesting. First time I rode it - my brain said, "Here's
your input on the bars and lean for that turn you are going to take." The result was a perfect turn. Didn't have to make any adjustments. Was quite surprised by it...
At least I try to "objectify" my statements - but then again - I am under no illusion - others will still reserve final judgement for themselves.
As to myself - I take more seriously a person who describes a bike using terms such as, "angles", "stiffness", "flex", "road shock absorption", "rider positon", etc....
...as opposed to "Feels like Italian".
Robert Shackelford San Jose, CA USA
Quoting Kurt Sperry <haxixe@gmail.com>:
> Understeer and oversteer are terms used in automotive vehicle dynamics
> to describe one axle or the other having a greater slip angle under
> lateral accelerations. I'm having trouble imagining how these terms
> might might apply to a bicycle in real everyday use. Do you have
> either a specific definition of these terms in mind for bicycles or a
> way of quantifying or identifying them empirically? For me on a
> bicycle, rear wheel slide is no big deal but front wheel slide gets
> exciting real fast.
>
> Kurt Sperry
> Bellingham, Washington
> USA
>
> 2009/3/22 <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net>:
> > Yeah, I was wondering the same thing...
> >
> > Sounded like another one of those "waxing eloquent" statements that I jum
> p on
> > people for when it would just be easier to make an effort to provide deta
> ils
> > that are a little more objective - identifiable - observable or comparabl
> e.
> >
> > For example...
> >
> > My Mexican made Benotto 2000 had a laid back Italian geometry with Ishiwa
> ta 019
> > and a steep head angle - yet it rode just like my Japanese made Lotus wit
> h a
> > laid back head angle. The Lotus had a very long wheelbase but could hi
> t the
> > hills and sprints just like the Benotto 2000.
> >
> > My Italian made Tommasini has a very laid back geometry - but with a tigh
> t
> > fitting rear wheel and shorter wheelbase - yet it has the same understeer
> my
> > Lotus and Benotto had.
> >
> > My Raliegh Competition from the 80's rode just like my French made Peugeo
> t 501
> > bike from the 80's - but the Peugeot flexed like a noodle. But the Peu
> geot
> > didn't feel anywhere near as soft and comfortable as an Italian made Beno
> tto
> > 5000SL which also flexed like a noodle.
> >
> > And my Spanish made Zeus Victoria? Upright seat tube that tosses and b
> end you
> > over the front - and an agressive head angle makes for a bike that has no
> > understeering - "takes corners like it's on rails" like one person said a
> while
> > back...
> >
> > Do I "wax eloquently" and...
> >
> > 1. Attribute a "Mexican, Italian, or a Japanese feel" to the Benotto a
> nd
> > Lotus?
> >
> > 2. Dare I attribute a "Japanese feel" to my Tommasini?
> >
> > 3. Should I attribute a "Culinary feel" to my Peugeot and the Benotto
> 5000SL?
> >
> > 4. Should I attribute a "Spanish feel" to my Zeus?
> >
> >
> > Personally, I prefer to talk in terms of:
> >
> > 1. Angles
> > 2. Road shock absorption
> > 3. Whether you are upright or stretched out.
> > 4. Whether there is oversteer or understeer.
> > 5. Whether there is stiffness for hill and sprint attacks - or flex for l
> ong
> > flats and comfort.
> >
> >
> > The closest I come to making a "feel" statement regarding my bike is simp
> ly the
> > following:
> >
> >
> > All except the Zeus were road bikes. However I "felt" the Benotto 2000
> and
> > Lotus were more responsive on the hills and in sprints. My Zeus "feel"
> like a
> > criterium bike.
> >
> >
> > At least I can describe the angles and other characteristics that I can "
> claim"
> > support the generalized statement. Other would still reserve judgement
> for
> > themselves for the obvious reason...
> >
> >
> > =8-)
> >
> > Robert Shackelford
> > San Jose, CA USA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting Nor Meyer <norbikes@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> * It definitely feels more Italian than French,
> >> *
> >>
> >>
> >> > I'm curious. What exactly duz the above evaluation mea
> n? Do
> >> differant nationalities produce bikes with differant "feel"? A little mo
> re
> >> explication, please.
> >> Thanx!
> >>
> >> Nor Meyer, in Mt. Vernon, IA
> >>
> >>
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> >>
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