Hi all. I think Peter Brueggemann's and Mike [hersefan] Kone's comments are on target. And of course Richard Sach's as quoted by Peter. Labels may guide us but they shouldn't take the place of our own independent judgement. I'm pretty confident that if Richard Sachs or Brian Baylis or Peter Weigle or many of the great artists of our day, were to build me a bike out of seamed high tensile "gas pipe" tubing, it'd be a great riding bike. Of course i'd have to ride it to be sure. Remember Sears' full Reynolds 531db "Ted Williams" bikes? The same tubeset as many great bikes but not really in the same league. Billy [proof of the pudding is in the eating] Ketchum; Chicago, IL; USA.