For what it's worth I built a twin down and seat tube track frame using 3/4" T45 (0.9mm wall) and built the rest with Deda plain gauge. I was expecting it to behave in an interesting way - much like the Simoncini frame that I tested for Cycling Plus c2008 - but found it to be far stiffer than expected and indeed much like my Columbus Cromor frame. Check out my Vincent frame on the RoadCC website. Unfortunately, they don't actualy say much about it. I didn't get any orders as people are obsessed with brand names in the UK and indeed the black fibrous stuff.
On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 8:00 PM, <classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org>wrote:
> Send Classicrendezvous mailing list submissions to
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> CR
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. FS: KYOKUTO PRO ACE PEDALS W/ AFA CLIPS & LAPIZE STRAPS
> (Peter Jourdain)
> 2. Re: Frame "stiffness" (Keith Anderson Cycles)
> 3. Frame stiffness, Now 3V stiffness (Tom Sanders)
> 4. Re: Frame stiffness, Now 3V stiffness (Ken Freeman)
> 5. Re: Frame stiffness NOW 3V tubes (Jon M. Crate)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 09:55:58 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Peter Jourdain <pjourdain@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [CR] FS: KYOKUTO PRO ACE PEDALS W/ AFA CLIPS & LAPIZE STRAPS
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Message-ID: <545069.53906.qm@web33001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Greetings--
>
> Nice pair of Kyokuto Pro Ace pedals, excellent copy of Campy record pedals.
> Really well built and they turn smoothly. AFA toeclips have a 50-55mm reach
> (medium) with some rust in places. Very good white Lapize toe straps.
>
> Photos here----
>
>
> http://s840.photobucket.com/
>
>
> $30 plus shipping. Paypal only, please, to pjourdain@yahoo.com
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Peter Jourdain
> Whitewater, Wisconsin USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:59:33 -0700
> From: "Keith Anderson Cycles" <info@keithandersoncycles.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Frame "stiffness"
> To: "paccoastcycles" <paccoastcycles@sbcglobal.net>
> Cc: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Message-ID:
> <
> 20100707095933.db2727180624c2a8a54809fa3b121369.4c0a36625c.wbe@email00.secureserver.net
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Respectfully, I would like to put in my 2 cents. Steel rides like steel
> no matter whether it's 531, 753, nivacrom, or unobtanium. The (basic)
> differences are in the strength of the material. The stronger the
> material, the thinner they can make the walls, and thus the lighter they
> can make the tubes. If you took a bike with the same geometry, and tubes
> of different material, say 753 and Prestige, but with the same
> dimensions, and wall thickness, you wold not be able to tell the
> difference. I promise! It is ALL in the geometry and dimensions of the
> steel that make the ride, not the perceived qualities of the material.
>
> Also, as we all know, the paint job is what really most effects the ride
> quality ;)
> Cheers,
> Keith
>
> Keith Anderson
> Keith Anderson Cycles
> 222 N. Marble Dr.
> Grants Pass, OR 97526
> 541-471-4114
> http://www.keithandersoncycles.com
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [CR] Frame "stiffness"
> From: "paccoastcycles" <paccoastcycles@sbcglobal.net>
> Date: Wed, July 07, 2010 9:31 am
> To: "Anthony Taylor" <ajft1942@yahoo.com>,
> <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
>
> I believe that the vast majority of "comfort" on a bicycle frame comes
> from
> the rider's fit to the bicycle. Also, my view has an unexplainable (by
> me,
> at least) relationship to the wheelbase of the bike. If I am pressed to
> put
> it into words, I'd say that it has to do with where the rider's mass is
> in
> relation to the wheelbase.
>
> Of course there are differences among frame material characteristics.
> Materials that have been used successfully for frames are subject to
> being
> made within the narrow parameters that will make a workable bike. I'm
> really
> trying to say that the differences are smaller than the flex in the
> tires
> and wheels. This doesn't serve the marketplace very well. It needs to
> have
> us believe that some frame materials have a quality that is better than
> others. Even if they do, the rider's position on the bike is where
> comfort
> comes from. I don't expect this idea to sit well with some people, so it
> can
> be chalked up with my idea that Marketing Driven Folklore makes us
> ignore
> some obvious truths.
>
> I don't mean nay disrespect to anyone who doesn't agree with this and I
> don't say it to make anyone wrong. It is just my idea and a little info
> to
> support it.
>
> Chuck Hoefer
> Pacific Coast Cycles
> Oceanside, Calif.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anthony Taylor" <ajft1942@yahoo.com>
> To: <Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 8:04 AM
> Subject: [CR] Frame "stiffness"
>
>
> >I have been following the thread with interest. I have a '93 Reynolds 753
> >OS
> > Paramount which I have had from new. I really feel a bit beaten up on the
> > last
> > half of a century. I'm not sure if it is the geometry or the tube set,
> but
> > I
> > don't find it to be a plush ride, as others seem to. I have been
> > contemplating
> > replacing it with an earlier SLX version.
> >
> > I would be interested in any comments or suggestions.
> >
> > Tony Taylor
> > Manchester NH
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2987 - Release Date: 07/06/10
>
> 23:36:00
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 13:00:03 -0400
> From: "Tom Sanders" <tom@orderandchaos.com>
> Subject: [CR] Frame stiffness, Now 3V stiffness
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Message-ID: <003801cb1df5$d891add0$89b50970$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Several folks have commented on the stiffness of the 3V bikes and its'
> beneficial effects on handling, acceleration, etc. The comments are spot
> on. These bikes do weigh a bit more than one might think, but once under
> motion there is no noticeable effect of the weight that I have ever been
> able to detect. I have owned one Italian one, one American one, and the
> highly custom one that Joe Starck built for his own use. I still have the
> Joe Starck one. First, let me point out that the American and Italian ones
> had no differences in ride and handling that I could discern. The Joe
> Starck one, even heavier than the other two due to beefier stays, seems to
> be the fastest bike I have ever owned. Perhaps this is all in my
> imagination , but it darn near feels like you could spin the rear wheel
> upon
> takeoff if you wished (or perhaps if I wasn't such an old time wimp).
> Again, the weight difference is in no way apparent when riding it. Not
> only
> very quick, it is very stable.
>
> This bike was sent to Damon Rinard for testing of its' stiffness and it
> tied for the stiffest steel bike tested. You can read the article here:
> http://sheldonbrown.com/
> Dale Brown several years ago and kitted it out with my ever favorite C
> Record goodies. You can see pics, if interested here:
> http://www.wooljersey.com/
>
> I think 3 V bikes are just sheer joy to ride, I am continually surprised
> they are not in as hot a demand as some other bikes. Kind of a Cult thing,
> I guess.
>
> Tom Sanders
>
> Lansing, MI USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 13:32:39 -0400
> From: Ken Freeman <kenfreeman096@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Frame stiffness, Now 3V stiffness
> To: Tom Sanders <tom@orderandchaos.com>
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTikpbdhF-iujj6U6qdNIR0xzYloOybVCuC0h9r8g@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Love the image of you or Joe or anyone smoking the rear tire of a 3v!
>
> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Tom Sanders <tom@orderandchaos.com> wrote:
>
> > Several folks have commented on the stiffness of the 3V bikes and its'
> > beneficial effects on handling, acceleration, etc. The comments are spot
> > on. These bikes do weigh a bit more than one might think, but once
> under
> > motion there is no noticeable effect of the weight that I have ever been
> > able to detect. I have owned one Italian one, one American one, and the
> > highly custom one that Joe Starck built for his own use. I still have
> the
> > Joe Starck one. First, let me point out that the American and Italian
> ones
> > had no differences in ride and handling that I could discern. The Joe
> > Starck one, even heavier than the other two due to beefier stays, seems
> to
> > be the fastest bike I have ever owned. Perhaps this is all in my
> > imagination , but it darn near feels like you could spin the rear wheel
> > upon
> > takeoff if you wished (or perhaps if I wasn't such an old time wimp).
> > Again, the weight difference is in no way apparent when riding it. Not
> > only
> > very quick, it is very stable.
> >
> > This bike was sent to Damon Rinard for testing of its' stiffness and it
> > tied for the stiffest steel bike tested. You can read the article here:
> > http://sheldonbrown.com/
> from
> > Dale Brown several years ago and kitted it out with my ever favorite C
> > Record goodies. You can see pics, if interested here:
> > http://www.wooljersey.com/
> >
> > I think 3 V bikes are just sheer joy to ride, I am continually surprised
> > they are not in as hot a demand as some other bikes. Kind of a Cult
> thing,
> > I guess.
> >
> > Tom Sanders
> >
> > Lansing, MI USA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ken Freeman
> Ann Arbor, MI USA
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 14:30:05 -0400
> From: "Jon M. Crate" <Jon@FAI.US>
> Subject: Re: [CR] Frame stiffness NOW 3V tubes
> To: <loudeeter@aol.com>
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Message-ID: <039E2D92E4904ACFB840D50EF3A3E712@QWERTY28>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> 3V tubes
> Is this the full gamut as far as 'we' can tell?
> Does anyone know how they could be differentiated?
> I ask because I am still trying to date my frame.
> thanks
> Jon Crate
> Marietta GA USA
>
> _____
>
> From: loudeeter@aol.com [mailto:loudeeter@aol.com]
>
>
> That is fine.
>
> From: Jon M. Crate <Jon.Crate@FAI.US>
>
>
> Thanks Lou - if you don't mind, I would like to post your answer.
> Is that ok?
>
> From: loudeeter@aol.com [mailto:loudeeter@aol.com
> <mailto:loudeeter@aol.com?> ]
>
> This is from the Used Bike Guide: Missing the 84-85 3V, but
> someone on the list said that Excel was still providing tubing at
> that time. I thought the super thin Excel tubing was only for
> small frames, but the other guy seems to imply his frame is large.
> >From what I can gather, Masi used a lot of different tubing sources
> for their frames, including the 3V. Lou, off-list
>
> Models:
> 3 Volumetrica 82-83 Excel oversized
> 3 Volumetrica 87-91 Oversize Columbus
> 3 Volumetrica Team 92-94 Oversize Masi
> 3 Volumetrica 95 Reynolds 753
> 3 Volumetrica 96 Columbus Custom
> 3 V Wing 97 Aluminum
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 91, Issue 21
> *************************************************