Speaking as a 'old traditional' framebuilder I have to say I have a huge dislike for the 'plug in type' dropouts......I'm talking about the internal plug type here......I've never liked using them. I much prefer the traditional method of slotting the stay... whether forks or back end...and filling the void with braze.
One of the things I dislike with the plug in style is how for it to be effective there as to be a perfect fit between the 'male' part of the dropout, and the 'female' part being the end of the stay or fork blade.......I've seen failure on this method even when under inspection there was evidence of braze on both parts, probably due to the 'male' part being undersized [no pun intended!] and a sloppy fit resulted.
It's the same with seat stay top eyes, of course you could use the hollow capped alternative, but certain frames require the solid top eye, the same problem can apply with some of the lighter guage seat stays where the stay tops flop around in the stays......which makes me think it might be better if top eyes where supplied without the machined step down so the builder could file or take down by lathe to the required diameter.......in my case it would be file, as I've never used a lathe.....any thing on my frames that looks like its been machined by lathe as in fact been hand filed. A external plug dropout, or stay top still can have the same issues if there is a significant differance in sizing, though this could be filled with braze.
Finally, referring to what Robert Clair wrote......
>>like american builders used to do before they got dementia and went crazy
>>on excess.<<
I think I know what he means, the curent trend for us framebuilders is to
'show off' our skills in certain ways, be it exotic fancy lugs, polished
stainless etc etc....or with 'Bling' I think is the term....this is fine and
I'm happy to go along with this, maybe a part of being a framebuilder is to
be a bit of a showman, but this is fine so long as it doesn't detract from
the 'un-bling' type frames we produce........for example, I've just made
myself a 'Bantel' Woodrup team frame which is as un-bling as can be.....no
fany cut out lugs, no stainless.....it's simply a 531c frame with Prugnat
type S lugs, full slope Cinelli internal crown........but I love
it!.......it's just a plain classic looking frame that's [though I say it
myself] perfectly built, and I really enjoyed it's maiden ride yesterday
over the rolling hills around West Yorkshire.
http://www.flickr.com/
Cheers
Kevin Sayles
Otley
West Yorkshire UK
<classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 7:32 AM Subject: Re: [CR] Nagasawa love ?
>I agree that the Nagasawa lugsets are beautiful, and they seem very easy to
> work with, and I'm certain that there's skill involved in making a frame
> with them. Their design is exquisite....but I do wonder a bit about (and
> am
> slightly upset by) the extent to which they mimic what a master
> framebuilder
> might/would do with real dropouts and tubing. It almost strikes me as
> disingenuous to make a plug-joined investment-cast part that looks like a
> contoured-tip dropout with an open-tube stay (or fork blade), complete
> with
> drawn-back braze.
>
> Furthermore, if one is making these parts (moreover, creating the original
> masters), they could've done most *anything* with the design (arbitrary
> amounts of detail, novel shapes, etc.), and this is what was chosen?
>
> I'm sure that opinions vary, but I think I want a little more
> craftsmanship
> if I'm paying what these frames go for. I know it was expensive to tool
> up
> these parts, and I'm sure the unit cost is considerable, but there has
> also
> been a lot of time to amortize that initial expense.
>
> Sorry...just feeling a little growly this evening (and those pictures of
> the
> pre-investment-cast Nagasawa just drove home my point...so much sweeter to
> know it's all *real* craft).
>
> Scott Minneman
> San Francisco, CA USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: classicrendezvous-bounces+minneman=onomy.com@bikelist.org
> [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces+minneman=onomy.com@bikelist.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Brent Steelman
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:08 PM
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR] Nagasawa love ?
>
> I really like the Nagasawa styling, but it is true, the frames are very
> plug and play. He has invested a lot in having the lugs and dropouts as
> close to the finished product as possible. So, there is very little left
> to do after the very skillful brazing has cooled. I don't thing this is
> good or bad, but it accomplishes a fine result without too much work.
> Suited to the end use I think.
> Brent
>
> Steelman Cycles
> 3600 Haven Ave #5
> Redwood City, CA 94063
> tel:650-364-3939
> fax:650-364-4029
> info@steelmancycles.com
> http://www.steelmancycles.com
>
>
> On 2/8/2011 8:43 PM, Robert Clair wrote:
>> ... what is with this Nagasawa love ? Nagasawa and nearly all other
>> certified japanese keirin frame builders have used cut-and-plug fork
>> dropouts for a number of years now. no framebuilding "mystic" there
>> (recall treks from the 80"s). as for filing "shorelines" on lugs ...
>> are you crazy !
>>
>> ... these frames are just worhorses that can be taken out on the first
>> ride ... any little bump/dent in the frame (usually on the side of a
>> top tube, from the bar hitting it) on a crash will disqualify it.
>> why do you think all the ebay used keirin frames these days come with
>> an installed headset (usually hatta swan) and bb (without the
>> bolts). they move on quickly ... and move on.
>>
>> ... anyway, there seems to be more than the usual keirin frames on
>> ebay these days ... that have the older (classic) construction
>> methods. good bargains i say ... talk about thinning the heard over
>> there). i just got an "older" 56 cm Stratos that is as mint as it
>> can be. soft white paint, gold sparkle, lug/support cutouts like
>> american builders used to do before they got dementia and went crazy
>> on excess.
>>
>> ... your mileage may vary (who said that on the list by the way :)
>> robert clair
>> alexandria, va
>> usa