Art,
Great explaination of your views. I'm certain there are many others who feel exactly the same. I can think of several prople I know on the list a lone who would say the same. Cool with me. Having not seen anything else that I have made is somewhat of a disadvantage in that this frame is a severe departure from my "normal style". I wish to explain how this frame came about, not to encourage more interest in my frames ( to be perfectly honest, Duane and I will have several issues to resolve before any deals can be made, like my backlog for instance), but to show how this thing all happened. It was semi-accidental.
One of my friends was in town a while back and during his visit he produced a lugset, a BB shell, a pair of plates to splice onto any fork crown, and a pair of Brake bridge reinforcers. He offered them up at a reasonable price so I said what the heck. Also at that time we discussed the vibrant chainstay, and he showed me a simple way to do it. As a rule one expects to ruin a few pieces before you finally get it wired or make neccessary adjustments. I took a pair of 531 chainstays that I would not be heartbroken about if I had to pitch them after the attempt. They were a pair of 531 chainstays that came out of the Reynolds boxed sets common amongst many framebuilders in the early 70's. I never liked the look of them because they are so skinny at he end. They're skinny all the way. I was used to the Columbus/Masi oval that I like best. (Mark Petrys' Wizard #13 probably has these chainstays!) Anyway, turns out they are perfect for this application. A round skinny stay bends smoother and easier and without the slight kinking that is the tendency for modern chainstay tube sizes. Other than two small indentions from part of the tooling (the detail that needs to be fixed before this process is perfect) this first pair came out very nearly perfect. I figured "I'll make a frame for myself because the stays aren't flawless, and I can test the design first to see if I like it". So the test basically gave me an excuse to make myself a "display" bike in that I decided to throw a bunch of elements of several classic bicycle designs at one frame just to see what would happen. I had the vibrant stays already and then I decided I wanted to go Hellenic seat stays also, since I've never done that either. Then it became a few elements of things I've never done before; vibrant stays, hellenic stays, curved brake bridge, brazed on brake bolts(for NR long reach), "double vibrant" seat stay using double taperd tubes, never used a green decal set yet ,etc. So what has resulted is a hodge podge of influences and elements (lugs and tubes) that came together over a period of time until suddenly the project caught fire when I committed to the Cirque. Otherwise this thing probably would be sitting in boxes along with (no lie )6 or 7 other "concept" frames I have planned if it ever happens.
The card suit thing I'm not sure where I picked that up but it is sort of a trademark trait of many of my frames. Once I settled on hellenic stays the opportunitiy to "advertize" so to speak on the open side of the seat lug was too much to resist; after all this is a sales tool. I needed a 700c wheeled bike for a demo because the only road bike I have now is built for 650c wheels. Can't sell a bike without a demo on the floor, can we? Then I decided on overkill for the card suits, you know, go for the record. Four complete sets! why the heck not? Actually I hadn't planned on the ones on the crown but once I had spliced the plates on which left a half-diamond hole in the middle, there was still tons or real estate left on the crown that needed something or it would look awkward. I finished the diamond and then had a flash of inspiration; "I know, the card suits, I've never done that before". That's how it went. Sometimes you don't know what you have to do until you get there. The lug cutouts were the same deal. Looked too clunky without cutting out all that stuff. I had cut the seat lug card suit and other cutouts first and it had been sitting in the box that way for a long time. When the fire got lit by the Cirque, I had to get busy cutting the head lugs. I noticed that the seat lug had 11 cutouts in it. That's my lucky number, so I worked out 11 cutouts for each head lug. Cluttered, yes. Lucky, maybe. Let's see if the chicks dig me! ;-)
So that's how the whole mess happened. Freak accident (and it shows), but she's my disfigured child and I love her anyway. If I didn't take her in she would be wandering around homeless and alone. I'm certain no one else would take in such a grotesque twisted figure. I must be a Saint! I'll even be seen in public with her; maybe next weekend at the 5 Piers ride, who knows? [ Blatant advertizement for the 5 piers ride, COME AND SEE THE FREAK SHOW, FOLKS!]
I'm ready to get back to my regular routine framewise. This was a lot of work. Learned a lot from this one though, wheather or not I'll use that knowledge is uncertain at this time.
Thanks again Art. I'm getting ready to throw another frame in the blender; let's see what comes out next. Hopefully something simpler and without those #*@&# card cutouts!
Brian Baylis
Whipping them up in La Mesa. What flavor do you want, Sir?
>
> Brian
> Thanks for the reply. The frame I was referring to was an unpainted
> work-in-progress that you posted to show us what you were working on. My
> initial response was that I loved the individual elements, the fancy headset
> lugwork and the spades, clubs cutouts, but that together they were overkill
> for me. That they were too much when used together, too classic (if there
> can be such a thing) and thus detracted from their individual strengths. My
> preference would have been to exclude the card symbols, (or create new ones)
> or tone down the fanciness of the lugs.If the green frame recently posted is
> the earlier frame in question now painted, then I still think there is too
> much going on...too much reference to classic style. Maybe I'm just bugged
> by the card images, having weathered the discussion about club or flower or
> the historical references. Or maybe I'm just knee jerking to something that
> I just saw in a 2 dimensional computer image and am just missing the whole
> picture...that is, seeing it in person. I teach art and make art and
> approach bikes from that perspective. The number of pieces of your work that
> I have seen is very small. I don't know what you were going after with this
> piece, if it is a progression of your style or a departure into making the
> quintessential modern vintage classic. I'm personally after a simple style
> these days. While the work that I have seen of yours doesn't approach the
> gaudy, I think it is a fine line between pushing the style envelope as far
> as possible and over doing it. Understand that my inital opinion, and my
> lurker post came out of some frustration. It's 115 here lately in Phoenix
> and my saddle time is less that I like. My interest in cycles runs in the
> pre forty eras, with an emphasis on the small American builders in the teens
> through thirties, and the small English makers of club bikes. An area of
> collecting that isn't very well documented and of a lesser interest on CR.
> Speaking of the overblown and gaudy, one of my favorite bikes is a 20's
> Adlake. Within the diamond frame, the maker has welded ironwork flourishes
> with tubes the size of the seat stays that create curved designs much like
> on an older style screen door! I recently purchased a custom made frame by
> an unknown English builder for an English bike shop owner by the name of
> Fred James. Using ellyptical tubing, the frame is a copy of the 49 Paris
> Gallibier. I am heading up into the cooler climes of No Idaho on Tuesday and
> when I return, I will post pics of both frames for you and CR. Thanks Brian,
> Art Smith
> From: "Brian Baylis" <rocklube@adnc.com>
> To: "Art Smith" <ahsmith49@home.com>
> Cc: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 10:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [CR]Observations of a Lurker
>
> > Art,
> >
> > I appreciate the comments and opinions you have made in your post. Of
> > course, I'm most curious to know your opinion of the artistic style of
> > the frame in said photo. Since it is your opinion, not I nor anyone else
> > have the right to say that your opinion is wrong or right. We can agree
> > with it or disagree, but one can not say it is wrong. It's YOUR opinion,
> > it belongs to you. If you were to state that such an such is a FACT to
> > which I know otherwise, I might (but not neccessiarily) disagree. My
> > feeling is that no one should ever feel that they can not give their
> > opinion. If one wants to make a statement as fact, then be ready to back
> > it up with valid proof if required, and do it nicely. And do it without
> > getting nasty, angry, or worst of all personal. We're all human (I
> > think?) and we can make errors (I thought I made a mistake once, but I
> > was wrong!) and when we do then be adult and mature enough to admit it
> > and apologize; and prove you are sincere by behaving in such a manner in
> > the future so that everyone else believes it. Simple to write (sort of)
> > but more difficult to practice. Personally, that is where I set my
> > standard.
> >
> > So fire away on your opinion, how the hell am I supposed to know what
> > you think of it if you don't tell me? How am I going to continue
> > learning if I'm not exposed to new ideas and opinions? I'm not a mind
> > reader you know. Now I'm getting upset you DID'T tell me ;-). I'm
> > attaching two photos of the finished and painted frame that were taken a
> > few hours ago to aid you in your analysis of the work in question. I
> > already know how I feel about the bike; it won't change after hearing
> > your opinion. Besides, what's done is done. And the frame is finished
> > now. The frame is a one-of-a-kind anyway, wheather someone likes it or
> > not; there won't be another one like it.
> >
> > I doubt if anyone will critize you or come to my defence (I'm a big boy,
> > I can take care of myself) and if they do they are not respecting your
> > right to your opinion. They can agree or disagree with your
> > observations, but I won't let them call you wrong.
> >
> > Last bit of information. A bicycle frame is first and formost a machine
> > to be ridden, used, and enjoyed. If someones opinion of my style is not
> > to their taste, I am not hurt. People who don't like my style don't
> > order frames from me. Simple as pie! I see things constantly that are
> > "artistic and or fancy" and much of it I don't like. I can appreciate
> > the skill and effort it took to make; but I don't like the looks. So
> > what! On the other hand, if someone (especially the customer) rides the
> > bike and feels it is wrong or doesn't like it THEN I get concerned. When
> > that happens I'll deal with it; I'm still waiting....
> >
> > Brian Baylis
> > La Mesa, CA. Knowing oneself from within works better than having thick
> > skin.
> >
> > P.S. The photos are a little bit large. befor I clog up your email box
> > I'll ask if you want the photos of the finished frame. There are only
> > two of them. If I wasn't computer-retarded, I would post them somewhere
> > so everyone could look at them. Sterling is going to take some photos of
> > it, maybe he can help me get something together. Sorry I'm a DORK,
> > alright?
> >
> >
> >
> > Brian Baylis
> > Anxious to hear what you think.
> > >
> > > In response to Brian's observation that a small group of the 400 members
> > > contribute to most of the commentary on this site and his call for what
> > > others think, here goes. I introduced myself and added a few posts in
> the
> > > months that I've been lurking around here. I came on in the middle of
> one of
> > > the emotional slams about some dead guy and commented that perhaps I'm
> in
> > > the wrong spot, but was assured by several private e-mails that the
> > > substance of this site is about bikes, and to hang with it. I've spent a
> > > number of years on oldroads and have found that environment to be an
> honest,
> > > supportive forum. Realizing that the discussions here were a bit
> different
> > > in topic and tone, I read everything you've written in order to get a
> > > handle on what this site is about.
> > > I think there are some really straightforward people here. I think
> > > their knowledge and opinions and advice are worth seeking out. I think
> > > others ought to ride more and talk less. I don't get the Masi/Confente
> thing
> > > and
> > > frankly think it's way overplayed. Sorry if that "hurts anyone's
> feelings."
> > > I don't get the hurt feelings thing. I think a free exchange of ideas
> ought
> > > to preclude hurt feelings. I think that a set of rules ought toapply to
> > > everyone, not just big names in the hobby with reps. Suppose I have a
> > > legitimate, fact-based beef with a celebrity. Can I air it here as
> > > righteously as I could against a no name e-bay dealer? I'm not sure.
> > > I don't want to get off on a rant here, but a number of us have left
> because
> > > of the overwhelming sense of attitude that permeates a strand of this
> site.
> > > It is by no means the whole site, but it is similar to the attitude many
> > > high tech, weekend roadies, dressed like Lance, have. It's the "I have
> the
> > > big guns, f... you, you can't hang with us" attitude regardless of how
> well
> > > you ride but rather based on their idea of what Bicycling Magazine just
> > > designated as the hottest $4000 road machine. It's ironical that
> attitude
> > > shows up here. It appears at times that the PC thing is to adore
> Confente,
> > > Masis and Campagnolo and heaven help you if you don't. Brian showed an
> > > example of a new frame he was working on. I had a criticism of the style
> of
> > > the frame from an artistic point of view. I wanted to share my
> observations
> > > in an art critigue sense. However, I knew that if I did, my criticism of
> the
> > > frame would be seen as a personal attack on Brian (which it would not
> have
> > > been) and
> > > that a round of fans would rush to his defense. The cult of personality
> is
> > > at times rampant here, for both the living and the dead.
> > > While I am not a framebuilder nor do I make my living in the world of
> > > bicylcles, vintage or not, as a collector and lover of bikes I have an
> > > interest in many of the topics discussed here. One can't legislate
> honesty
> > > or open mindedness or compassion on this site any more than one can
> trust
> > > that a member won't bid against another member on an auction. This site
> > > isn't everything I want, but it has its moments. This is just the way I
> see
> > > it. I don't know, I could be wrong.
> > >
> > > Art Smith