John,
Your assertion about wheelbuilders is mostly correct, but overstated. I've seen some wacky wheels in my twenty years in the industry. I remember a wheel with ALL the drive side spokes head-in, and ALL the non-drive head-out (with the pushing spokes overlaying the pulling,) to help equalize the tension. Seemed to work fine, and still seems less nutty to me than many of the recent off-topic wheel lacing patterns I see.
That said, frankly it is not a matter of opinion whether a Campagnolo HF 36h hub laced 4x makes spokes cross adjacent heads. Please review the photo in my previous post; they simply do not. They get very close, but do not actually touch.
Which speaks to "design." Campagnolo could have made their hub flange any size they wished. Since 36 was for decades the most commonly used (and Campy's default) drilling, I suspect they designed their hub flange diameter specifically to allow building a 36h hub 4x to a 28" tubular (or 700c clincher) rim, which gets spokes as close as possible to tangential without crossing spoke heads.
Greg Reiche CyclArt, Inc. Vista, CA USA shop@cyclart.com
From: classic-rendezvous-lightweight-vintage-bicycles@googlegroups.com [mailto:classic-rendezvous-lightweight-vintage-bicycles@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Brown Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 7:13 PM To: classic-rendezvous-lightweight-vintage-bicycles@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: {Classic Rendezvous} Campag HF Hubs vs. Spoke X-ings ?
John wrote: "I don't know how you can say "they do amazingly well". Ha ha! Many 1960s and 1970s bikes, esp track irons, used wheels built this way reliably for years and years. I agree it's pretty funky but it works. I have seen them, worked on them and even built wheels myself HF and 4X. Guess you haven't talked to all the wheel builders yet! :) The lesson here, in my opinion, is for us not to be dogmatic or absolutist about things BICYCLE, many practices have happily existed that may be less than optimum in theory...
Dale (45 years in the trade)
On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 8:56 PM, John Businger <jbusinger@gmail.com<mailto:jbusinger@gmail.com>> wrote: I don't know how you can say "they do amazingly well" if something is not by design. There is not a wheelbuilder in the world who would ever recommend the practice of spokes touching adjacent spoke heads. Sometimes bad ideas survive, but that's about it. On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Dale Brown <dalebbrown@gmail.com<mailto:dalebbrown@gmail.com>> wrote: John wrote: <<Dont'r recommend 4x as the spokes will touch adjacent spoke heads>>
Actually quite a few On Topic bikes came with wheels using 4X on High Flange hubs. Despite over lapping spokes, etc. they do amazingly well... On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 3:41 PM, John Businger <jbusinger@gmail.com<mailto:jbusinger@gmail.com>> wrote: Dont'r recommend 4x as the spokes will touch adjacent spoke heads. 2x not recommended either as you will not achieve true tangential spoking (push/pill). Radial will work as long as you maintain even and maximum tension.
John Businger, Brookline, MA On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 7:01 PM, <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net<mailto:mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net>> wrote: 2x, 3x, 4x are fine.
Don't recommend radial because of the damage risks involved...
=8-)
Robert Shackelford San Jose, CA USA
Quoting Richard Cielec <teaat4p@gmail.com<mailto:teaat4p@gmail.com>>:
> Ahoy !
> Re: Campag High Flange hubs, NR/SR, Tipo, 1970's- End of Time Line
> I am asking for reason of my definite ignorance of the physics and
> stresses placed upon hub flanges.
>
> Are radial and 2X crossings compatible with these high flange hubs 32H
> and 36H ? Assumption is that hubs are in good condition, of course.
> Application would be road riding, not racing. Clilncher and tubular
> rims. Rider weight approx. 140 lbs.
>
> Thank you
>
> Richard Cielec
> Chicago, Illinois; U.S.A.
>
> --
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Dale Brown
cycles de ORO, Inc.
1410 Mill Street, Ste 100
Greensboro, North Carolina USA 27408-2105
336.274.5959
http://www.cyclesdeoro.com<http:/
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John,
Your assertion about wheelbuilders is mostly co= rrect, but overstated. I've seen some wacky wheels in my twenty years in th= e industry. I remember a wheel with ALL the drive side spokes head-in, and = ALL the non-drive head-out (with the pushing spokes overlaying the pulling,= ) to help equalize the tension. Seemed to work fine, and still seems less n= utty to me than many of the recent off-topic wheel lacing patterns I see. <= o:p>
That said, frankly it is not a matter of opin=
ion whether a Campagnolo HF 36h hub laced 4x makes spokes cross adjacent he=
ads. Please review the photo in my previous post; they simply do not. They =
get very close, but do not actually touch.
Wh=
ich speaks to "design." Campagnolo could have made their hub flan=
ge any size they wished. Since 36 was for decades the most commonly used (a=
nd Campy's default) drilling, I suspect they designed their hub flange diam=
eter specifically to allow building a 36h hub 4x to a 28" tubular (or =
700c clincher) rim, which gets spokes as close as possible to tangential wi=
thout crossing spoke heads.
Greg Reiche
CyclArt, Inc.
Vista, CA USA
shop@cyclart.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 7:13 PM
<=
b>To: classic-rendezvous-lightweight-vintage-bicycles@googlegroups.com<=
br>Subject: Re: {Classic Rendezvous} Campag HF Hubs vs. Spoke X-ings=
?
John wrote:
=
; "I don't know how you can say "they do amazingly well"=
;.
Ha ha! Many 1960s an=
d 1970s bikes, esp track irons, used wheels built this way reliably for yea=
rs and years. I agree it's pretty funky but it works. I have seen them, wor=
ked on them and even built wheels myself HF and 4X. Guess you haven't talke=
d to all the wheel builders yet! :)
The lesson here, in my opinion, is for us not to be dogmat=
ic or absolutist about things BICYCLE, many practices have happily existed =
that may be less than optimum in theory...
Dale (45=
years in the trade)
On We=
d, Feb 23, 2011 at 8:56 PM, John Businger <jbusinger@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know how you can say "they=
do amazingly well" if something is not by design. There is not a whee=
lbuilder in the world who would ever recommend the practice of spokes touch=
ing adjacent spoke heads. Sometimes bad ideas survive, but that's abo=
ut it.
On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 5:49=
PM, Dale Brown <dalebbrown@gmail.com> wrote:
J=
ohn wrote:
<<Dont'r recommend 4x as th=
e spokes will touch adjacent spoke heads>>
Actually quite a few On Topic bikes came with wheels using 4X on =
High Flange hubs. Despite over lapping spokes, etc. they do amazingly well.=
..
On Wed, Feb 23, 201=
1 at 3:41 PM, John Businger <jbusinger@gmail.com> wrote:
Dont'r recommend 4x as the spokes will touch adjacent spoke heads.=
2x not recommended either as you will not achieve true tangential spoking =
(push/pill). Radial will work as long as you maintain even and maximum tens=
ion.
John Businger,
Brookline, MA
2x, 3x,=
4x are fine.
Don't recommend radial because of the damage risks inv=
olved...
=3D8-)
Robert Shackelford
San Jose, CA USA
Quoting Richard Cielec <teaat4p@gmail.com>:
> Ahoy !
> Re: Campa=
g High Flange hubs, NR/SR, Tipo, 1970's- End of Time Line
> I am aski=
ng for reason of my definite ignorance of the physics and
> stresses =
placed upon hub flanges.
>
> Are radial and 2X crossings compat=
ible with these high flange hubs 32H
> and 36H ? Assumption is that h=
ubs are in good condition, of course.
> Application would be road rid=
ing, not racing. Clilncher and tubular
> rims. Rider weight app=
rox. 140 lbs.
>
> Thank you
>
> Richard Cielec
&=
gt; Chicago, Illinois; U.S.A.
>
> --
> You received this =
message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Class=
ic Rendezvous lightweight vintage bicycles" group.
> To post to =
this group, send email to
> classic-rendez=
vous-lightweight-vintage-bicycles@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscr=
ibe from this group, send email to
> classic-rendezvous-lightweight-vintage-bicycles+unsubscribe@google=
groups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
>
>
>
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cycles de ORO, Inc.
1410 Mill Street, Ste 100
Greensbo=
ro, North Carolina USA 27408-2105
336.274.5959
www.cyclesdeoro.com
www.classicrendezvous.com=
www.caroli=
nacup.com
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